Cuban Players Defectors

[Agente Libre]

Danys Baez, Jose Contreras and Rolando Arrojo are pitchers. MLB needs pitching. Therefore, any pitcher will have advantage over a position player.

No argument there.

How about Rolando Viera, Arrian Cruz, and other players in like Serguey Linares, Edisbel Benitez, Jorge Diaz, Angel Lopez, Alberto Hernandez, Yohennis Perez, etc? Who represented them and how much MLB offered them? Pennies and more pennies.

As you know, I'm quite familiar with many of the players on the above list. While all of them were very good players in Cuba and probably deserved better contracts (and treatment) than they received in MLB, it's unfair to suggest they should have been millionaires, either.

Viera was a good but not great lefty who barely threw 90. Cruz was a crafty lefty who stands about 5-foot-8 and didn't have much of a track record in Cuba. Serguey Linares was brutal in Cuba (seen his stats?), but could throw hard. Edisbel Benitez basically retired for 3 years after defecting in 2004; he blew off so many workouts he has no one to blame but himself. Jorge Diaz, Angel Lopez and Alberto Hernandez were all borderline great players in Cuba, but position players pushing 30 years old who used aluminum bats their entire careers in Cuba will never be in big demand by MLB. (And Yohennis Perez signed for over $600,000 with the (cheap) Milwaukee Brewers, so it's not like MLB ripped him off.)

MLB has to everpaid for japanese players because they can say go to hell and I am staying in Japan because I am a millionare.

Exactly right, but that's not MLB's fault.

Andy Morales was the fifth or sixth best 3B in his generation and past his prime. Blame de Yankees and their poor scouting.

Exactly right.

By the way, how in the heck Fukudome is the starting CF in the all stars game when there are 7 CF's with better numbers and he plays RF where he also has several RF's with better numbers.

I guess the entire Japan voted for him. Just wait for the chinese players to come to the USA. Nobody in MLB nor the USA media talks about this crap and the all star game. Actually, this game should be rename the non all star game.

Ha ha. Exactly right about this, too.

Exactly, how are you going to market Ramirez as an infielder when he did not play 2B to much. He played there for team Cuba in an emergency basis. He played SS in his rookie year and that's it. He played 7 years as a CF. Are you saying now that Torres could sell him in other positions and MLB will digest it as simply as that? Alexei is 26 years old not 20 years old. Anyways, the cuban missil is tied with Alex Rodriguez in 8th place. He needs around 30 more AB to qualify.

Wait a minute. You seem to be arguing against yourself above. If Ramirez was too old to be marketed as a 2B, then why was he able to do it during a few games in spring training? Obviously, Ramirez has spent a *lot* of time working out as an infielder. As you said in another thread, the Equipo Cuba guys all spend months and months in training, so if Ramirez saw himself as a 2B, he should have been marketed as a 2B last winter, *especially* after teams were saying Ramirez is way too small to be a CF or to have OF power in MLB.

Again, we're on the same side here, but business is business. You and I don't pay more than we need to when we buy a car or new shoes or whatever; why should MLB just hand over $40 million to Alexei Ramirez if him and his agent will be happy with $4 million?

[Cubano100%]

Agente:

You wrote that Serguei Linares should have gotten a better contract a few posts back. You implied that Torres is responsible for his bad contract. Linares was nobody in Cuba.


Don't you thing that MLB knows that Ramirez played CF in Cuba?

By the way, how are those great CF who were a free agents like Alexei are doing these season?

These are the class of 2007. I invite to check the stats and compare them to Alexei's numbers. It looks like the scouts did not know what they were doing by passing on Alexei as a CF.

Andrew Jones
Aaron Rowand
Torii Hunter
Mike Cameron
Kenny Lofton
Kosuke Fukudome
Corey Patterson

[Cubano100%]

Mr. J.P. shared this article in the cuban forum, but I guess he is taking a lot of time to post it here. Ha,ha,ha.


Delia Dominguez said on page 12: "From the moment the trial started, she says, “I felt that I was outside of my life, looking down on our lives. Gus loved this country and what it stood for. He loved this country. When I heard them say, ‘The United States of America versus Gus Dominguez,’ my heart just sank.”


Gus Dominguez said: "And why, in the end, was this crime he says he didn’t commit so awful? Even more than ordinary citizens, Cuban ballplayers are prisoners of the state. “The most prized possessions to Fidel Castro were the baseball players,” says Dominguez. A democratic government should encourage, not punish, those who seek to help victims of tyranny to escape. “If this country cannot say to those people, ‘Come to us—we’ll give you freedom,’ where else can they go?”

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/07/cuban_baseball200807?currentPage=1

The USA policies are inconsistent. Fifty, fourty, thirty, twenty and ten years ago, Mr. Dominguez would have been invited to the White House for helping cubans escape. The USA government and CIA have done worse things than this. They prepared Bay of Pigs and other activities against Cuba by training cubans and facilitating arms deals, etc. They have encouraged cuban to leave the country by boat, raft, smuggling, etc. Now all of the sudden, they chaged their policy. If Gus Dominguez should be in jail, CIA and ex-USA government employees should be prosecuted for far worse activities involving cubans. American policies are as inconsistent as they can get not only on this, but also in other world policies. Everything is a big farse just like the cuban mafia in Cuba.

[Agente Libre]

Agente:

You wrote that Serguei Linares should have gotten a better contract a few posts back. You implied that Torres is responsible for his bad contract. Linares was nobody in Cuba.

No, I didn't say that at all. I said *Torres* said Serguey Linares was worth millions and then signed him with Pittsburgh for around $100,000. When agents pull crap like that, they lose credibility.

Don't you thing that MLB knows that Ramirez played CF in Cuba?

Of course they do, but they also (a) knew he played a lot of infield for the national team and (b) obviously didn't like him as a center fielder, so he should have been marketed at his best position, or at least his most logical position in MLB.

By the way, how are those great CF who were a free agents like Alexei are doing these season?

These are the class of 2007. I invite to check the stats and compare them to Alexei's numbers. It looks like the scouts did not know what they were doing by passing on Alexei as a CF.

Andrew Jones
Aaron Rowand
Torii Hunter
Mike Cameron
Kenny Lofton
Kosuke Fukudome
Corey Patterson

Well, Alexei is playing 2B in MLB, so comparing him to last year's center fielder class is moot.

... The USA policies are inconsistent. Fifty, fourty, thirty, twenty and ten years ago, Mr. Dominguez would have been invited to the White House for helping cubans escape. The USA government and CIA have done worse things than this. They prepared Bay of Pigs and other activities against Cuba by training cubans and facilitating arms deals, etc. They have encouraged cuban to leave the country by boat, raft, smuggling, etc. Now all of the sudden, they chaged their policy. If Gus Dominguez should be in jail, CIA and ex-USA government employees should be prosecuted for far worse activities involving cubans. American policies are as inconsistent as they can get not only on this, but also in other world policies. Everything is a big farse just like the cuban mafia in Cuba.

This dialogue is getting a little crazy, and a lot off-track, and I don't want to delve too deeply into political discussions we all know Mr. Albright frowns upon. But just as a quick reply, smuggling people to the U.S. has *always* been a federal crime, and it seems absurd to suggest that a Cuban-American like Gus Dominguez has some sort of special license to smuggle people to the U.S. whenever he wants.

If I put some Chinese people in the trunk of my car and get caught driving them across the U.S./Canada or U.S./Mexico border, I'm going to prison. As much as I like seeing Cuban players succeed in MLB, I don't see how it should be any different for Gus Dominguez, or why he should have his own set of rules to live by.

[Cubano100%]

Come on Agente! For someone that follows the cuban situation as well as you, it is not time to be naive.


Anybody that follow cuban politics knows that the US government has closed their eyes over the years about cubans coming by boat, etc. Not only the ones coming from Cuba, but also cubanamericans bringing cubans here. Have you forgotten about the cuban pilot Lorenzo? He went to Cuba from Miami in small plane to pick up his family and landed in an highway in Cuba. Then, he came back and was welcomed like a hero. Why? He ridiculized the cuban army. Why the USA government did not pursue any charges?

http://www.amazon.com/Wings-Morning-Flights-Orestes-Lorenzo/dp/0312100086

Look. The USA government knows who Posada Carriles is. Where is he? In the streets. Why? The USA government does not want Posada running his mouth in a USA court incriminating the CIA dirty crap over the years and so on.

The Dominguez's case was an hipocresy from the current USA government. You tell me who is worst. Posada or Dominguez.

As I wrote, Dominguez would had been invited to the White House 20 years ago for helping cuban players escape tyranny.

I am ending this here.

[Agente Libre]

... Anybody that follow cuban politics knows that the US government has closed their eyes over the years about cubans coming by boat, etc. ...

Just because the U.S. failed to enforce its laws for a few years doesn't render those laws null and void.

The Dominguez's case was an hipocresy from the current USA government. You tell me who is worst. Posada or Dominguez.

As I wrote, Dominguez would had been invited to the White House 20 years ago for helping cuban players escape tyranny.

The U.S. government locked up Posada for *years* and only released him when a federal judge forced the U.S. to release him because Posada was deemed to be non-deportable.

Anyway, Gus Dominguez has denied having *anything* to do with smuggling players to the U.S., so how can he be a "hero"? If he said, "Yes, I smuggled them, and I was proud to give those young men freedom, and I'll accept any punishment that is given to me for doing so," then *that* might make him a hero, but how can he be a hero for something he still claims he didn't do? That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

[Paula59]

Last nigth Germany played USA in Regensburg/Germany (Site of next years WC)

Germany lost 03:09 against the US Team that had beaten Cuba twice at the Haarlem Baseball Week.

Starter for Germany was once again the Number 1 Starter Cuban born Enorbel Maquez

Recap here

http://web.usabaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080715&content_id=34409&vkey=recap_usab

Play by Play here

http://www.mister-baseball.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/pbp-15-germany.pdf

[J.P]

Just because the U.S. failed to enforce its laws for a few years doesn't render those laws null and void.



The U.S. government locked up Posada for *years* and only released him when a federal judge forced the U.S. to release him because Posada was deemed to be non-deportable.

Anyway, Gus Dominguez has denied having *anything* to do with smuggling players to the U.S., so how can he be a "hero"? If he said, "Yes, I smuggled them, and I was proud to give those young men freedom, and I'll accept any punishment that is given to me for doing so," then *that* might make him a hero, but how can he be a hero for something he still claims he didn't do? That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

Agente, did you read the article? I mean, I hadnt thought about it like that, and I'm not naive enough to think GuS Dominguez didnt "help" a player or two get out, but it really didnt make much sense to "invest" $225,000 on the likes of Yoankis Turino, Osmany Masso, Allen Guevara, Bueno and Castillo; and according to the author, Andy Morales seems to be a little (or maybe a lot) involved too.

[jalbright]

This dialogue is getting a little crazy, and a lot off-track, and I don't want to delve too deeply into political discussions we all know Mr. Albright frowns upon.

Mr. Albright frowns upon going this far into the political because site rules indicate this is a "baseball-only" forum. I want to remind everyone of that, and be aware that future posts in this vein will be edited/deleted, and it is possible that there will be consequences for those who break that rule in this thread from this point forward. I trust this will be a word to the wise. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

[J.P]

Mr. Albright, I respect your position, but at the same time I ask you to ackowledge the fact that for Cubans it is extremely hard to separate baseball from politics, due to the fact that baseball has been used as a political tool by our government for the past 50 years. Futhermore, you cant even find an article on Cuban Baseball where politics is not mentioned, if renowned journalists who perhaps spend a week in Habana cannot make the "separation", how can we who have lived through it our entire lives?

PS: I'm not asking you to allow full political discussions, but to at least show some flexibility.

Thank you.

[jalbright]

Mr. Albright, I respect your position, but at the same time I ask you to ackowledge the fact that for Cubans it is extremely hard to separate baseball from politics, due to the fact that baseball has been used as a political tool by our government for the past 50 years. Futhermore, you cant even find an article on Cuban Baseball where politics is not mentioned, if renowned journalists who perhaps spend a week in Habana cannot make the "separation", how can we who have lived through it our entire lives?

PS: I'm not asking you to allow full political discussions, but to at least show some flexibility.

Thank you.

With all due respect, JP, I have, for the reasons you've indicated. I let this discussion go as far as it has. That said, this particular discussion has gone far too far away from baseball to be allowed to go any further. This discussion deserves no more flexibility, nor will it get it.

[cuban_aficionado]

Team Cuba's problems..

How do we explain the lack of offense showed by team Cuba in the Harleem tournament?

Why the baseball authorities in Cuba are chosing the worse players to represent the island?

Why Cuban players did not ask for political asylum in Europe???

Why none stayed behind?

Cuba has no excuse for losing two games to a college team based of AA ball players....

[J.P]

With all due respect, JP, I have, for the reasons you've indicated. I let this discussion go as far as it has. That said, this particular discussion has gone far too far away from baseball to be allowed to go any further. This discussion deserves no more flexibility, nor will it get it.

Ok, I understand, I thought you meant in the thread overall. Thanks for the clarification.

[Agente Libre]

Agente, did you read the article? I mean, I hadnt thought about it like that, and I'm not naive enough to think GuS Dominguez didnt "help" a player or two get out, but it really didnt make much sense to "invest" $225,000 on the likes of Yoankis Turino, Osmany Masso, Allen Guevara, Bueno and Castillo; and according to the author, Andy Morales seems to be a little (or maybe a lot) involved too.

Yes, I read it. I know the author. (The story actually came out six weeks ago; I'm surprised it took so long for my Cuban amigos to start talking about it. The story was debated at length at other baseball sites back in June.)

Just so I'm clear, my summary of the whole Gus Dominguez issue is as follows: I believe Gus, overall, has done a lot of good for Cuban defectors, but I believe he got reckless and ended up getting caught by changing times -- that is, the crackdown on illegal immigration in general and the crackdown on Miami smugglers in particular.

As for Andy Morales, Gus Dominguez went on HBO's "Real Sports" back in 2000 and basically admitted he paid to have Morales smuggled to Florida. (I believe the clip is still on the Internet somewhere.) As 'Cubano100%' said above, it went from okay to smuggle people to not okay, and unfortunately for Gus, he got caught by the changing times.

As for the $225,000, why would Gus mortgage his house to pay $225,000 for players he didn't want smuggled to the U.S.? That's really the part of the story that doesn't make sense. (If I recall, Francisley Bueno and/or Osbeck Castillo were All-Stars in 2004, and Gus probably thought he could make some money.)

How do we explain the lack of offense showed by team Cuba in the Harleem tournament?

Why the baseball authorities in Cuba are chosing the worse players to represent the island?

Well, this is a better topic for the other threads, but at least it changed the subject.

Cuba's slump in Holland could be any or all of three things: Over-training/fatigue from months of pre-Holland training; a typical baseball slump at the wrong time; a failure by the Cuban baseball people to actually send Cuba's best players.

[Cubano100%]

Just because the U.S. failed to enforce its laws for a few years doesn't render those laws null and void.



The U.S. government locked up Posada for *years* and only released him when a federal judge forced the U.S. to release him because Posada was deemed to be non-deportable.

Anyway, Gus Dominguez has denied having *anything* to do with smuggling players to the U.S., so how can he be a "hero"? If he said, "Yes, I smuggled them, and I was proud to give those young men freedom, and I'll accept any punishment that is given to me for doing so," then *that* might make him a hero, but how can he be a hero for something he still claims he didn't do? That doesn't sound very heroic to me.

Posada was not jailed for years. Posada was jailed for an inmmigration charge. Give me a break! He was jailed for entering the USA illegally and not for other things he may have done. That was just a face saving charge for the USA government. The USA government had to charge him with something minor because the USA government was not looking to good and they were claiming the terrorist card around the world. Castro and Chavez were mocking the USA government about this in every international forum.

There are many immingrants that are jailed in the USA and are not deported. Posada is not in jail because he knows to much about the CIA, he is a Vietnam veteran and a cold war fighter for the USA. Dominguez is non of that.

What would you do if you were in Dominguez's shoes?


The word hero is relative to you, me and every person. For you George Washington may be a hero, but for others George Washington may mean slavery and oppression. For me, Dominguez is a hero.