Front shoulder pull

[Swing Coach]

Is Front Shoulder Pull a teach? In other words, as I look at many powerful MLB swings, I notice how the front shoulder really pulls into and after contact...which helps hook the hands and create more bat head speed. Does this front shoulder pull happen automatically, or is it a teach into contact? I am leaning toward that it is a teach, especially when you look below at Ellsbury's shoulder pull on this HR swing below. Thoughts?
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PRO PHOTO SAMPLES 08-11-2011 0003.jpgJacoby Ellsbury 08-25-2011 0003.jpg

[songtitle]

Good question. I could go either way... today.

[dominik]

no. the shoulders and arms are along for the ride. the hips and core powers the swing. I would not teach shoulder rotation at all. if you rotate the hips properly the shoulders will follow.

teaching the shoulders to rotate purposefully will usually lead to pulling the head off the ball and an upper body dominant swing. that's why any MLB hitting coach says "keep the fron shoulder in (or closed)" although that doesn't reflect reality of course.

[Dirtberry]

Swing coach,

Is Front Shoulder Pull a teach?

This mechanical action is a main component of force coupling of the hands at contact to create equal and opposite pressure on the bat handle. The opposite force is voluntary and active pronation of the back side forearm. This action causes conservation of previous inertia built up by the torso rotation and is a teach. The instructors that do not teach force coupling with the hands will not produce it in their students.

[songtitle]

keep the front shoulder in

I wish I knew what that meant. I have asked players what they thought it means after I tell them, and they will give a thousand different answers.

Especially since the front shoulder doesn't stay "in" at all.

[The Uncoach]

no. the shoulders and arms are along for the ride. the hips and core powers the swing. I would not teach shoulder rotation at all. if you rotate the hips properly the shoulders will follow.

The arms are not along for the ride. The hips have to clear for the top to go to work. Ted Williams' suggested that he wanted the hips to be operating at about 85% and the arms/hands/wrists to be going at 100%. Regardless of percentages, there is work to be done in the swing by other body parts than the hips.

[The Uncoach]

I wish I knew what that meant. I have asked players what they thought it means after I tell them, and they will give a thousand different answers.

Especially since the front shoulder doesn't stay "in" at all.

The hips lead. They open before the shoulders. The separation of the bottom half from the top half and the torque generated by that separation is what "keeping the front shoulder in" is all about. Of course that cue has been hijacked by poor instructors to mean other things.

edit: went hunting in the clips/pics thread. Here are a few to look at.



Look at the torque on francouer plant...



Now just imagine the separation at plant. The front shoulder is in.

[Chris O'Leary]

Is Front Shoulder Pull a teach? In other words, as I look at many powerful MLB swings, I notice how the front shoulder really pulls into and after contact...which helps hook the hands and create more bat head speed. Does this front shoulder pull happen automatically, or is it a teach into contact? I am leaning toward that it is a teach, especially when you look below at Ellsbury's shoulder pull on this HR swing below. Thoughts?

Interesting topic and something that I've been thinking about myself as I think about problems like bat drag and arm bar.

I believe that, while the front shoulder has a role to play, I believe that taking it too far can create problems like arm bar. One way to interpret the clip below is that the hitter is trying to pull too much and/or too soon with their front shoulder.



This swing could be interpreted as...

1. Push the hands back to try to create separation.
2. Pull like crazy with the front shoulder.

I'm toying with characterizing the swing above as a dominant front arm and/or shoulder (with the arm bar being effect more than cause) more than bat drag.

In truth, you have to balance things out.

[Dirtberry]

Songtitle,

This all depends on the approach and actual performance by pitch location.

“I wish I knew what that meant.”

To me it has always meant shoulder deceleration into contact that I physically teach and it produces great results in that the hands can actually be used then to force couple the bat

“I have asked players what they thought it means after I tell them”

Why are you telling them if you don’t know what it means?

“they will give a thousand different answers”

Teachers should teach what they should do not what they think they are doing although asking them what terms mean can often produce surprising responses and lead to clarification on even the seemingly simplest terms.

”Especially since the front shoulder doesn't stay "in" at all”

Watch great power hitters, their shoulders create great speed in the beginning and decelerate into contact then continue on their way.

[songtitle]

Dirt,

Why are you telling them if you don’t know what it means?

heh, I try to get kids to think about cues and what they mean. Some, like this one, don't have any practical meaning for them.

I agree, the front hip and front shoulder can't fire together. I focus on the front hip and the back shoulder firing together - this is what makes a good swing so tricky for most.

Chris,
Notice how his back shoulder is getting ahead of his back hip. Remember we talked about keeping the back hip/shoulder synced, yet having the front hip go ahead of the front shoulder.

[Chris O'Leary]

Chris,
Notice how his back shoulder is getting ahead of his back hip. Remember we talked about keeping the back hip/shoulder synced, yet having the front hip go ahead of the front shoulder.

I see that as well.

His sequence is definitely upside-down, coming top-down rather than middle-out from the hips.

What's confusing is that the hips do turn, but if you look carefully you will see that they are being pulled around by the shoulders rather than vice versa.

Thanks to the action of the serape muscles, his front shoulder is pulling his back hip around rather than his front hip pulling his back shoulder around.

However, I think it's still (mostly) accurate to describe this as a shoulder-driven swing.

[jbooth]

I wish I knew what that meant. I have asked players what they thought it means after I tell them, and they will give a thousand different answers.

Especially since the front shoulder doesn't stay "in" at all.

It means to not pull the front shoulder out, but rather, hold it in until it gets forced open due to hip rotation. As usual with many queues, it doesn't mean literally, to "keep" it in, and never let it go. The hips turn the shoulders and the shoulders pull the hands

[mudvnine]

I focus on the front hip and the back shoulder firing together - this is what makes a good swing so tricky for most.

What "fires" the back shoulder . . . or how does it "fire"?

I guess to be clearer in my question . . . what pulls it or pushes it to make it "fire"?

[mudvnine]

It means to not pull the front shoulder out, but rather, hold it in until it gets forced open due to hip rotation. As usual with many queues, it doesn't mean literally, to "keep" it in, and never let it go. The hips turn the shoulders and the shoulders pull the hands

JB, not to raise the hairs on the back of your neck here or anything, but doesn't the bold sort of explain the meaning of the "shoulder bypass" to you, or at least help you understand what is meant my it, even if you don't necessarily like those words for it?

IOWs, don't consciously do anything with the shoulders in the swing . . . just "bypass" them and use the "hips and hands" . . . in simplified terms that is.

No?

[omg]

Is Front Shoulder Pull a teach?

No way. It would definitely screw up your hitters big time.