Baseball Fever Hall of Fame

[jalbright]

Biggio was on a roster all year, and is thus ineligible. Bagwell wasn't eligible until this year because he spent all of last year on the DL.

Jim Albright

[Chadwick]

Biggio was on a roster all year, and is thus ineligible. Bagwell wasn't eligible until this year because he spent all of last year on the DL.

I must have missed it in the rules where it states that that is a disqualifying factor. The rules, as I read them, stated quite clearly that a player need only to meet one of the three guidelines in order to be eligible.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[jalbright]

I can tell you that even if you're reading it precisely correctly, that's not what I meant, and, more importantly, it's not how I've administered it thus far. Biggio isn't eligible, and if he had been, I'd have announced him. Instead, the only two I gave were Bagwell and Bernie Williams. I wouldn't have missed Biggio if I had intended him to be eligible. I'll reread the rule and fix it to match my intent more closely if necessary.

Jim Albright

Postscript: the rule didn't achieve what I wanted, so I changed the retirement date to September 1 instead of November 1.

[Chadwick]

I can tell you that even if you're reading it precisely correctly, that's not what I meant, and, more importantly, it's not how I've administered it thus far. Biggio isn't eligible, and if he had been, I'd have announced him. Instead, the only two I gave were Bagwell and Bernie Williams. I wouldn't have missed Biggio if I had intended him to be eligible. I'll reread the rule and fix it to match my intent more closely if necessary.

Jim Albright

Postscript: the rule didn't achieve what I wanted, so I changed the retirement date to September 1 instead of November 1.

No worries; I'll alter my ballot accordingly. Thanks for the clarification.

[J W]

OK, I've expanded my ballot to 25 and I have exactly three open spots remaining in the queue, after which I'm kicking players off. Edgar Martinez won't count towards that and will likely end up on my ballot.

With the election of Luis Aparicio and long since Ozzie Smith, it brings two players more to the spotlight that compare favorably to them IMO: Rabbat Maranville and Bill Mazeroski. I put Maranville on my ballot, and came close to adding Maz. I don't know if it's the best decision. These guys are competing for spots against real solid OFers like Bobby Veach, Tony Oliva and Bob Johnson.

I'm having trouble picking out the remaining pitchers to vote for. If Bob Caruthers, why not Tony Mullane? If Chief Bender, why not Urban Shocker? If Tommy Bridges, why not Lefty Gomez? Nonetheless, the Cooperstown cutoff line seems to be right in the middle of this area. I know that I am not voting for Red Ruffing or Burleigh Grimes.

[jalbright]

We had a very productive election. On the player side, we elected Jeff Bagwell, Bob Caruthers, Kazuhisa Inao, and Tony Perez. On the contributor side, we elected Ed Bolden, Lefty O'Doul, and Kazuto Tsuruoka. We covered recent baseball, the 19th century, Japanese ball (a special thanks from yours truly in that regard to all who provided support), and the Negro Leagues in our inductees for this month.

O'Doul is now ineligible on the player side.

The contributor ballot was productive in electing the guys I "campaigned" for, but few beyond the elected ones could amass even a majority of the vote, in large measure to the short ballots which supported few beyond the electees (Five of our 14 ballots were for less than 10 candidates). It seems that the once a year aspect helped focus attention on the campaign, and perhaps it will work that way again in the future. We'll have to wait a year to find out, though.

More details on the election results to follow.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

I know that I am not voting for Red Ruffing or Burleigh Grimes.

Would you care to explain why?

[jalbright]

Here's the player voting, which had 16 valid ballots:

Player......	votes	pct		Player......	votes	pct
Bagwell, Jeff……..	16	100.0		Bagwell, Jeff……..	16	100.0
Inao, Kazuhisa……	14	87.5		Bando, Sal………..	1	6.3
Perez, Tony……….	13	81.3		Beckley, Jake……..	9	56.3
Caruthers, Bob……	12	75.0		Bender, Chief……..	4	25.0
Boyer, Ken………..	10	62.5		Bessho, Akira…….	7	43.8
Johnson, HR	10	62.5		Bonds, Bobby…….	3	18.8
Moore, Dobie………	10	62.5		Bottomley, Jim…….	2	12.5
Sutter, Bruce……..	10	62.5		Boyer, Ken………..	10	62.5
Beckley, Jake……..	9	56.3		Bresnahan, Roger	4	25.0
Doyle, Larry……….	9	56.3		Bridges, Tommy	1	6.3
Grimes, Burleigh…..	9	56.3		Browning, Pete……	8	50.0
Klein, Chuck……….	9	56.3		Canseco, Jose……	1	6.3
Rice, Sam…………..	9	56.3		Caruthers, Bob……	12	75.0
Sewell, Joe………..	9	56.3		Childs, Cupid………	2	12.5
Wallace, Bobby…..	9	56.3		Cravath, Gavvy……	2	12.5
Browning, Pete……	8	50.0		Cuyler, Kiki…………	5	31.3
Faber, Red………..	8	50.0		Day, Leon………….	5	31.3
Ruffing, Red……….	8	50.0		Doyle, Larry……….	9	56.3
Start, Joe………….	8	50.0		Evans, Darrell…….	6	37.5
Bessho, Akira…….	7	43.8		Evans, Dwight…….	7	43.8
Evans, Dwight…….	7	43.8		Faber, Red………..	8	50.0
Palmeiro, Rafael…..	7	43.8		Franco, John……..	1	6.3
Quisenberry, Dan..	7	43.8		Glasscock, Jack….	3	18.8
Rixey, Eppa……….	7	43.8		Gomez, Lefty……..	4	25.0
Welch, Mickey…….	7	43.8		Grimes, Burleigh…..	9	56.3
Evans, Darrell…….	6	37.5		Hernandez, Keith…	4	25.0
Joss, Addie………	6	37.5		Inao, Kazuhisa……	14	87.5
Ochiai, Hiromitsu….	6	37.5		Johnson, Bob……..	1	6.3
Oms, Alejandro……	6	37.5		Johnson, HR	10	62.5
Rice, Jim…………..	6	37.5		Joss, Addie………	6	37.5
Ryan, Jimmy……….	6	37.5		Kingman, Dave…..	1	6.3
Sheckard, Jimmy….	6	37.5		Klein, Chuck……….	9	56.3
Wilson, Hack………	6	37.5		Leach, Toimmy……	2	12.5
Cuyler, Kiki…………	5	31.3		Lombardi, Ernie……	3	18.8
Day, Leon………….	5	31.3		Manush, Heinie……	5	31.3
Manush, Heinie……	5	31.3		Maranville, Rabbit	2	12.5
Martinez, Edgar……	5	31.3		Martinez, Edgar……	5	31.3
Smith, Lee…………	5	31.3		Mathews, Bobby…	1	6.3
Willis, Vic………….	5	31.3		McCormick, Jim……	1	6.3
Bender, Chief……..	4	25.0		McVey, Cal………..	4	25.0
Bresnahan, Roger	4	25.0		Moore, Dobie………	10	62.5
Gomez, Lefty……..	4	25.0		Mullane, Tony……..	3	18.8
Hernandez, Keith…	4	25.0		Nettles, Graig……..	1	6.3
McVey, Cal………..	4	25.0		Ochiai, Hiromitsu….	6	37.5
Pearce, Dickey…….	4	25.0		O'Doul, Lefty………	2	12.5
Walker, Larry……..	4	25.0		Oliva, Tony………..	2	12.5
Wynn, Jimmy………	4	25.0		Oliver, Al…………..	2	12.5
Bonds, Bobby…….	3	18.8		Oms, Alejandro……	6	37.5
Glasscock, Jack….	3	18.8		O'Neill, Tip…………	1	6.3
Lombardi, Ernie……	3	18.8		Palmeiro, Rafael…..	7	43.8
Mullane, Tony……..	3	18.8		Pearce, Dickey…….	4	25.0
Waner, Lloyd……..	3	18.8		Perez, Tony……….	13	81.3
Bottomley, Jim…….	2	12.5		Pike,  Lip…………..	1	6.3
Childs, Cupid………	2	12.5		Poles, Spotswood	2	12.5
Cravath, Gavvy……	2	12.5		Quisenberry, Dan..	7	43.8
Leach, Toimmy……	2	12.5		Rice, Jim…………..	6	37.5
Maranville, Rabbit	2	12.5		Rice, Sam…………..	9	56.3
O'Doul, Lefty………	2	12.5		Richardson, Hardy	1	6.3
Oliva, Tony………..	2	12.5		Rixey, Eppa……….	7	43.8
Oliver, Al…………..	2	12.5		Rosen, Al………….	1	6.3
Poles, Spotswood	2	12.5		Ruffing, Red……….	8	50.0
Bando, Sal………..	1	6.3		Ryan, Jimmy……….	6	37.5
Bridges, Tommy	1	6.3		Sewell, Joe………..	9	56.3
Canseco, Jose……	1	6.3		Sheckard, Jimmy….	6	37.5
Franco, John……..	1	6.3		Smith, Lee…………	5	31.3
Johnson, Bob……..	1	6.3		Smith, Reggie……..	1	6.3
Kingman, Dave…..	1	6.3		Start, Joe………….	8	50.0
Mathews, Bobby…	1	6.3		Stephens, Vern…..	1	6.3
McCormick, Jim……	1	6.3		Sutter, Bruce……..	10	62.5
Nettles, Graig……..	1	6.3		Walker, Larry……..	4	25.0
O'Neill, Tip…………	1	6.3		Wallace, Bobby…..	9	56.3
Pike,  Lip…………..	1	6.3		Waner, Lloyd……..	3	18.8
Richardson, Hardy	1	6.3		Welch, Mickey…….	7	43.8
Rosen, Al………….	1	6.3		Willis, Vic………….	5	31.3
Smith, Reggie……..	1	6.3		Wilson, Hack………	6	37.5
Stephens, Vern…..	1	6.3		Wynn, Jimmy………	4	25.0
Youngs, Ross……..	1	6.3		Youngs, Ross……..	1	6.3

[jalbright]

Here's the contributor ballot, which had 14 valid ballots:

Contributor	votes	pct		Contributor	votes	pct
Bolden, Ed	14	100.0		Barlick, Al	1	7.1
Tsuruoka, K	13	92.9		Bolden, Ed	14	100.0
O'Doul, Lefty	12	85.7		Bouton, Jim	1	7.1
Caray, Harry	10	71.4		Buck, Jack	1	7.1
Canel, Buck	8	57.1		Canel, Buck	8	57.1
Jobe, Frank	7	50.0		Caray, Harry	10	71.4
Krichell, Paul	7	50.0		Chandler, Happy	2	14.3
Shoriki, M	7	50.0		Chylak, Nestor	2	14.3
Foster, John B.	6	42.9		Conlan, Jocko	2	14.3
Martin, Billy	6	42.9		Doucet, Jacques	5	35.7
Doucet, Jacques	5	35.7		Evans, Billy	1	7.1
Lardner, Ring	5	35.7		Flood, Curt	3	21.4
Pearce, Dickey	5	35.7		Foster, John B.	6	42.9
Reach, A.J.	5	35.7		Frick, Ford	3	21.4
Steinbrenner, G	5	35.7		Greenlee, Gus	1	7.1
Johnson, Davey	4	28.6		Grimm, Charlie	1	7.1
Schuerholtz, J	4	28.6		Harris, Bucky	1	7.1
Flood, Curt	3	21.4		Harris, Vic	2	14.3
Frick, Ford	3	21.4		Hubbard, Cal	2	14.3
Mizuhara, S	3	21.4		Jobe, Frank	7	50.0
Chandler, Happy	2	14.3		Johnson, Davey	4	28.6
Chylak, Nestor	2	14.3		Krichell, Paul	7	50.0
Conlan, Jocko	2	14.3		Lardner, Ring	5	35.7
Harris, Vic	2	14.3		Martin, Billy	6	42.9
Hubbard, Cal	2	14.3		Mizuhara, S	3	21.4
Pasquel, Jorge	2	14.3		Murtaugh, Danny	1	7.1
Pompez, A	2	14.3		Mutrie, Jim	1	7.1
Ramirez, Felo	2	14.3		Nehf, David	1	7.1
Smith, Red	2	14.3		Norworth, Jack	1	7.1
Tyson, Ty	2	14.3		O'Doul, Lefty	12	85.7
Barlick, Al	1	7.1		Pasquel, Jorge	2	14.3
Bouton, Jim	1	7.1		Pearce, Dickey	5	35.7
Buck, Jack	1	7.1		Pompez, A	2	14.3
Evans, Billy	1	7.1		Ramirez, Felo	2	14.3
Greenlee, Gus	1	7.1		Reach, A.J.	5	35.7
Grimm, Charlie	1	7.1		Rice, Grantland	1	7.1
Harris, Bucky	1	7.1		Schuerholtz, J	4	28.6
Murtaugh, Danny	1	7.1		Shibe, Ben	1	7.1
Mutrie, Jim	1	7.1		Shoriki, M	7	50.0
Nehf, David	1	7.1		Smith, Red	2	14.3
Norworth, Jack	1	7.1		Steinbrenner, G	5	35.7
Rice, Grantland	1	7.1		Tsuruoka, K	13	92.9
Shibe, Ben	1	7.1		Tyson, Ty	2	14.3

[Chadwick]

On the player side, we elected Jeff Bagwell, Bob Caruthers, Kazuhisa Inao, and Tony Perez.

Baseball Guru can now die a happy man. :

[jalbright]

This election and/or the next are likely to be the two least participated in this year if history is any guide. It's understandable, given the impending holidays and activities that go with it, plus the end of the semester for those involved in collegiate matters. That said, I encourage you to vote early, even if it means initially posting last month's ballot minus those who were elected, hoping that you get back to add names to fill the holes. You can always PM me to notify me of changes, and they will be recorded. Thanks.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

AG2004 posted this in the voting thread:

Are all foreign players allowed to be nominated? For example, are stars of the Hoofdklasse allowed to be nominated?

The following was posted by Jim Albright in May 2006, and can be found at post 120 of the main discussion thread.

After AG2004's inquiry on Perucho Cepeda, I'm defining the eligible leagues thusly: the majors or Japan's top professional leagues or various top blackball leagues (Negro Leagues in the US. Cuban Leagues pre 1950, Puerto Rican Winter League pre 1950, Mexican League pre 1950, 1937 Dominican League, California Winter League)

In fact, if the consensus of voters agrees, I'm willing to open the gates to consideration of any player from any league--but with the significant catch that if you want to do so for a guy who didn't play in the enumerated leagues, you've got to make the case in this thread that the guy was great enough to stand on a par with reasonably good HOF (or any BBF HOF) selections (note the emphasis on the plural). AG2004's [work] on Perucho Cepeda would be a more than acceptable model. Of course, I would look favorably upon efforts modeled on my own work on Japanese players. If your case is reasonable and in good faith, the vote for the candidate will be accepted. If I or anyone else has doubts about the legitimacy of the case, it would be noted in this thread, and while I reserve judgment to myself, I promise to listen to any discussion of the voters in this thread as to whether or not the case is a) reasonable and b) made in good faith. If we go this route, I would require that votes for such candidates would not be accepted within the last ten days of the voting period, to allow time for discussion of the presentation and for a decision.

(Since Omar Linares was a part-time player in Japan at the tail end of his career, I think he would be technically eligible.)

Any further consideration of Jim's proposal should be on the main BBFHOF discussion thread; I'll just say here that I'm willing to go along with it.

I had forgotten this post, but it isn't a big change from my response to Cowtipper. I'd really rather go with this. Linares is probably technically eligible, but the case for him really rests on his Cuban play. I just have difficulty making the case for him given his play in his mid-30's in Japan. Castro's Cuba would be the most fertile ground we haven't addressed, and I'm not comfortable with pinning down how good those leagues were. I doubt Korea or Taiwan have any suitable candidates, and am unconvinced Mexico or Venezuela have, though I am willing to listen. As for European players who never made a splash internationally nor played in the majors, Negro Leagues, or Japan, I find it hard to believe someone could make an acceptable case for them, but if anyone is inclined to try, I'll listen.

Jim Albright

[J W]

Would you care to explain why (you are not voting for Red Ruffing or Burleigh Grimes)?

Mainly, because there are too many players between where we are, and where I would be inclined to vote for them. Here are the starting pitchers I am currenty voting for:

Chief Bender
Tommy Bridges
Red Faber
Addie Joss
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis

There are three spots left to go to Cooperstown-eligible players. I'm looking at 1-2 more pitchers. After that, one of these would need to get the axe.

When I look at Burleigh Grimes, I see a 1920's version of Jack Morris. Both pitchers who would follow a sterling season with a relative clunker, but manage their way to a very good win total and win%. Both linked heavily to the all-decade-team routine. Only Grimes doesn't come with Morris's postseason reputation. I'm inclined to vote for Morris before Grimes... and Morris is still several pitchers away. "But why then are Faber and Willis on your list?" Well, Faber was more consistent, and Willis did it in less time.

Ruffing's case is that of a pitcher who took a while to get started. He is much closer than Grimes and I can see the beef taking Willis over him (take the last 13 years of his career, 1933-1947, and you'll see what I mean). I just can't seem to shake looking at that 3.80 career ERA.

Anyways, I'm looking squarely at Lefty Gomez next, and I may vote for Urban Shocker or Eppa Rixey.

[J W]

Also, since his eligibility coincides with Jeff Bagwell, I would like to see P Kevin Brown added to your Keltner List if that's ok... and yes, he will get my vote this election.

[AG2004]

Also, since his eligibility coincides with Jeff Bagwell, I would like to see P Kevin Brown added to your Keltner List if that's ok... and yes, he will get my vote this election.

I think I'll produce a list for him this weekend.

In the meantime, I produced some win share totals for pitchers who debuted during the 1980s, as well as totals for Mike Mussina and Pedro Martinez.

Career win share totals:
Roger Clemens 440*
Greg Maddux 389*
Randy Johnson 315*
Tom Glavine 314*
John Smoltz 285*
Mike Mussina 256*
Curt Schilling 254*
Pedro Martinez 250*
Kevin Brown 241
Chuck Finley 213
Orel Hershiser 210
David Cone 205
Bret Saberhagen 193
Kevin Appier 189
Dwight Gooden 187
Frank Viola 187
Mark Langston 184
*Played in the major leagues in 2007.

Top three seasons
[NOTE: Numbers in brackets are after adjustments for short seasons.]
Roger Clemens 32, 29, 28 - 89
Greg Maddux 30, 27, 26 - 83 [36, 34, 27 - 97]
Pedro Martinez 29, 27, 26 - 82
Randy Johnson 29, 26, 26 - 81
Kevin Brown 26, 26, 23 - 75
Bret Saberhagen 28, 24, 23 - 75
Frank Viola 25, 24, 22 - 71
Curt Schilling 24, 24, 22 - 70
Orel Hershiser 25, 23, 21 - 69
Tom Glavine 23, 23, 22 - 68 [23, 23, 23 - 69]
Dwight Gooden - 33, 18, 17 - 68
John Smoltz 27, 21, 18 - 66 [27, 21, 29 - 67]
Kevin Appier 27, 20, 19 - 66
Mike Mussina 24, 20, 20 - 64 [25, 24, 23 - 72]
Chuck Finley 23, 19, 19 - 61 [23, 20, 19 - 62]
Mark Langston 21, 20, 20 - 61
David Cone 21, 20, 19 - 60 [28, 21, 21 - 70]

Top five consecutive seasons
[Numbers in brackets are after adjustments for short seasons.]
Greg Maddux 131 [145]
Randy Johnson 126
Roger Clemens 125
Pedro Martinez 117
Kevin Brown 114
Orel Hershiser 102
Tom Glavine 101 [106]
Curt Schilling 101
Frank Viola 100
John Smoltz 99 [101]
Bret Saberhagen 98
Kevin Appier 95 [102]
Dwight Gooden 95
David Cone 93 [103]
Mike Mussina 89 [96]
Chuck Finley 86 [87]
Mark Langston 83

-----
Kevin Brown has the fifth-best peak in this group, trailing only the "big four" of Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, and Martinez. However, I don't know how his comparables in the career group (Schilling, Mussina, and Martinez) are going to come out in the end.

I still have to take a look at how Brown does in a year-by-year comparison with other pitchers before producing my list and a conclusion.