Whip, Swivel, Early Bat Speed, Torque, and Such

[collegeStar]

try it---hold the bat --make your brain tell your forearms to supinate the top hand AS FAST AS YOU CAN and PRESTO!!!the top hand supinates instantaneously!!!!!

Reply back after you have tried it----there is NO delay....

Did you try it?

Do you think he is trying to supinate the top hand--but just cant?

Originally Posted by collegeStar

FFS--The clear thing that you should take away from this is that forearm supination has not occurred until frame 35---

meaning the HANDS are not doing what your buddies say and in fact the forearms/hands are doing the opposite of what HI suggest

--the forearms are working resist supination as Yeager suggests (aka maintain a pronated position) , until frame 35.

[/quote]

[FiveFrameSwing]

Originally Posted by collegeStar

Did you try it?

Do you think he is trying to supinate the top hand--but just cant?

No, I haven't tried it yet. But I will. I need to better understand your perspective and question my understanding.

As an FYI ... I still believe that in transitioning between frames 32 to 33 that I see the palm just beginning to change relative to the upper arm.

Now I need to go swing a bat.

[collegeStar]

OK FFS on last attempt to help you see the error in your/their ways...

You say you see supination in frame 33 (there is none, but I will humor you)
If he is trying to supinate at 33 then he is certainly trying to supinate at frame 34 right??

Look at frame 34 and use your common sense for God's sake in answering this question:

With the bat in that position (frame 34) would you say that the forearm muscles are more likely being recruited to hold the barrel up (resist supination) or "turn the barrel" back and down (promote supination)?

Simple question with an obvious answer for those that have not been brainwashed.

bye...

Originally Posted by collegeStar

FFS--The clear thing that you should take away from this is that forearm supination has not occurred until frame 35---

meaning the HANDS are not doing what your buddies say and in fact the forearms/hands are doing the opposite of what HI suggest

--the forearms are working resist supination as Yeager suggests (aka maintain a pronated position) , until frame 35.

[/quote]

[BoardMember]

CS...you are talking to a wall......I tried to explain this at XX lite several days ago......They have been TOLD that the action is supination.......so they use it as an explaination of how the forearm gets from palm down to palm up.....

It doesn't matter to them whether it is or isn't anotimically articulated or not......

Five.....if you would......please do this SIMPLE thing for me....

Raise your elbow up even with your shoulders and in the shoulder line, with your elbow bent in a tight V which puts your hand close to your shoulder socket, and face your palm to the ground........

Now.....without manipulating/rotating your forearm/palm at all....simply drop your elbow to your side WHILE YOU LATERALLY TILT your rear shoulder down/front shoulder up...........

You will see the the "palm to the ground" turns to "palm to the sky" without ANY rotational manipulation of the palm/forearm........THIS IS NOT SUPINATION........IT IS SIMPLY ADDUCTION WITH LATERAL TILT.......

NOW......From this slotted/palm up/laterally tilted postion.....IF you rotate your palm toward your thumb so it faces behind your back.......THAT IS SUPINATION........

Please do this and report back your findings with a better understanding of supination of the hand/forearm........

[FiveFrameSwing]

Originally Posted by collegeStar

OK FFS on last attempt to help you see the error in your/their ways...

You say you see supination in frame 33 (there is none, but I will humor you)
If he is trying to supinate at 33 then he is certainly trying to supinate at frame 34 right??

Look at frame 34 and use your common sense for God's sake in answering this question:

With the bat in that position (frame 34) would you say that the forearm muscles are more likely being recruited to hold the barrel up (resist supination) or "turn the barrel" back and down (promote supination)?

Simple question with an obvious answer for those that have not been brainwashed.

bye...

CS ... I took some swings. I want to make sure I understand your position on the barrel load. Sorry to throw that out there ... but when you speak of resisting supination at launch ... if I do something like anit-supinate, and try to actively pronate .... well, that result was really bad ... at least it didn't work very well for me on a first try. So I need more information relative to what you mean by resisting supination.

Regarding the portion bolded in 'red' ... IMO the forearm will assist in holding the barrel up just fine in this position (see attachment). IMO that's one of the advantages of passing through the Power-V position ... it provides support for the barrel. The forearm in this position supports holding the barrel up ... IMO the process of supinating through this position doesn't alter that.

I want to thank you for the cordial discussion ... and look forward to more.

[BoardMember]

In a nut shell.......

[BoardMember]

Five........Did you try this?........What did you find?

Five.....if you would......please do this SIMPLE thing for me....

Raise your elbow up even with your shoulders and in the shoulder line, with your elbow bent in a tight V which puts your hand close to your shoulder socket, and face your palm to the ground........

Now.....without manipulating/rotating your forearm/palm at all....simply drop your elbow to your side WHILE YOU LATERALLY TILT your rear shoulder down/front shoulder up...........

You will see the the "palm to the ground" turns to "palm to the sky" without ANY rotational manipulation of the palm/forearm........THIS IS NOT SUPINATION........IT IS SIMPLY ADDUCTION WITH LATERAL TILT.......

NOW......From this slotted/palm up/laterally tilted postion.....IF you rotate your palm toward your thumb so it faces behind your back.......THAT IS SUPINATION........

[BoardMember]

Another exellent visual of when supination actually occurs.....

When the knob head UP the red line supination is occuring.....NOT before...



You can also see the internal rotation of the humerus (coupled with extension) bringing the top hand directly in front of the shoulder by contact.......

[BoardMember]

Oh and HYP.....Maybe you could ask you leader if Pujols hands are in front of his shoulder in frame 7.......Yet move in front of the shoulder in frame 13......Somethin just ain't right there is it?......

You know it ain't supination gettin it there right?.......

Originally Posted by BoardMember

[wogdoggy]

Originally Posted by Stealth

4for4 - that swing for a 12 year old is solid, very good for his age. The kids swing keeps getting better and better. You can pick it a part if you want, but man I would take that swing in a second on my 12 year old team.

And it sure would be nice for you to show a clip of your students so we could see how good they are doing with your methods. I won't hold my breath.

AMEN to that..that kid looks like he generates great bat speed,,now we can get educated by the experts how early active hands promote barrel dumping...

[Chris O'Leary]

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

Others might look at this clip as an example of why your bolded portion above is not correct. It's already been explained to you ... multiple times I might add ... and you haven't yet responded to those posts. Why?

Because they are wrong.

[Chris O'Leary]

Originally Posted by 4for4

You have one where he's not hitting it off the handle?

I'm looking, but I can't find one of my tapes.

[Chris O'Leary]

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

That does not agree with what O'leary believes. He states that it can't be happening that early because the hinge angle of the lead-arm is still maintained.

It absolutely agrees with what I believe.

[Chris O'Leary]

Originally Posted by collegeStar

He is not supinating until frame 35....and there is no wall or anything else preventing supination...He is not supinating because he is not trying to...

Let me clarify something that is a bit of technical point.

It's obvious that his forearm does not supinate (rotate around its long axis) until Frame 35.

We know that because the hinge angle doesn't change.

I could buy that his Supinator muscle is active and maintaining the hinge angle at 90 degrees. The rotational force of the swing will tend to cause his forearm to pronate, and he resists that force by activating his Supinator muscle.

However, until Frame 35 there is little to no change in the degree of pronation/supination (even though the underlying muscles are active) because all he is doing is setting and then maintaining the hinge angle.

[Chris O'Leary]

Originally Posted by collegeStar

You have no idea what forearm supination is do you??????

We've already established that (or that they are using the term in a non-standard way).

[Chris O'Leary]

Originally Posted by collegeStar

--the forearms are working resist supination as Yeager suggests (aka maintain a pronated position) , until frame 35.

As I say elsewhere, I think the hands are resisting pronation (closing down of the hinge angle and bat wrap). IMO the rotational forces are going to cause pronation, not supination (which is why the Supinator muscle is active up to Frame 35).

I don't think the activation of the Supinator muscle is the main reason why the bat whips out.

However, and this may be similar to what Jim Booth believes, the beauty of resisting pronation and maintaining the hinge angle with an active Supinator muscle is that it may give the whip a little bit of an extra boost right at the beginning of the whip.

Also, I don't think you have to time out the releasing of the hands just right as HYP implies. If the Supinator is active and holding the hinge angle, then when momentum takes over and causes the whip you will get the extra boost from the Supinator pretty much for free.

[1chapterahead]

Originally Posted by 4for4

Hinge angle begins breaking down between frame 29 and 30 (dumps the barrel). These two swings show the same problem:





Very different from the pros in this thread.

Is Ted dumping the barrel?

[jofus]

Originally Posted by HYP

Let me ask everyone a question. If I have the palms of my hands against a wall, like a bench press, and I start pushing. If my body doesn't move backwards and the wall doesn't move. Does that mean I'm not pushing?

Is the wall pushing?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

It absolutely agrees with what I believe.

Chris, if we are going to have a discussion with you then you need to stop with the contradictions.

CS wrote the following.

Originally Posted by collegeStar

I agree with him that supination will "hurt" hinge angle but hinge angle has NOTHING to do with determining if supination is occurring or defining supination.

CS is correct here. You have repeatedly stated the opposite, and ignored posts explaining why your position was not correct.

However, if you now see the error in your logic then that is fine ... but please let's not return to a pattern of contradictions.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

I'm looking, but I can't find one of my tapes.

Not a problem Chris ... you've documented quite well that one can supinate the rear forearm while maintaining the leadarm hinge angle ... which you now appear to accept.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

Because they are wrong.

But you just wrote that you agreed with CS when he wrote the following.

Originally Posted by collegeStar

I agree with him that supination will "hurt" hinge angle but hinge angle has NOTHING to do with determining if supination is occurring or defining supination.

Can we get you to clarify your position here? If you decide not to agree with CS again, can you go back to the posts that explained why he is correct and explain why they are incorrect?

[jofus]

To further the "push against the wall" question, if your hand and arm are strapped down, and you try to do this movement, but nothing moves, is there supination?

[FiveFrameSwing]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Leary

We know that because the hinge angle doesn't change.

No Chris ... we don't know that becausse the hinge angle hasn't changed.

Originally Posted by collegeStar

hinge angle has NOTHING to do with determining if supination is occurring or defining supination.

[Stealth]

Originally Posted by BoardMember

Another exellent visual of when supination actually occurs.....

When the knob head UP the red line supination is occuring.....NOT before...



You can also see the internal rotation of the humerus (coupled with extension) bringing the top hand directly in front of the shoulder by contact.......

BM - when the red line shows up in your clip, in my mind that is pretty darn early in the swing. If it occurs at that point in time the hitter would have had to get his muscles (hands/forearms) ready a frame earlier correct?

We will never agree on the correct words or the exact frame, but the hands /forearms are working. There is no way they get to palm up a few frames before contact by rotation a lone. Thats really what the argument is about.

[Chris O'Leary]

Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing

Chris, if we are going to have a discussion with you then you need to stop with the contradictions.

CS wrote the following.

CS is correct here. You have repeatedly stated the opposite, and ignored posts explaining why your position was not correct.

However, if you now see the error in your logic then that is fine ... but please let's not return to a pattern of contradictions.

If you are actively supinating, rather than just activating the supinator muscle to maintain the hinge angle, then the hinge angle (the angle formed by the front forearm and the barrel of the bat) HAS TO change.

Think of the hands mid-swing as a 3-axis structure. Roughly speaking, the lead forearm is the X-axis, the back forearm is the Y-axis, and the barrel of the bat is the Z-axis.

If you supinate and rotate the back forearm around it's long axis (and don't just maintain the 90 degree hinge angle), then you HAVE to change the hinge angle. That is because the rotation (aka supination) of the forearm will also cause the wrist to rotate (because they are attached via bone).

You CANNOT supinate the forearm and not rotate the wrist (which by definition will change the hinge angle).

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand, unless you simply don't know what supinate means (which seems to be the case).