Is Mariano Rivera REALLY a HOFer?

[SABR Matt]

That would be the lone argument for using leverage index to adjust reliever value. That certainly should be considered if you are trying to numerically explain team wins...but should that be used to rate the pitching skill for any particular player? The argument would have to rest on high-leverage pitching being more stressful and therefore requiring a workload adjustment similar to the one I would give to a starting pitcher for throwing a lot more innings than other candidates for the hall. The reliever cannot control what leverage he gets...that's a team factor controlled by the manager, the reliever partially (the better you are, the more you'll get used when it matters most), and the rest of his team (there have to be close, winnable games for you to pitch in).

[STLCards2]

Originally Posted by SABR Matt

That would be the lone argument for using leverage index to adjust reliever value. That certainly should be considered if you are trying to numerically explain team wins...but should that be used to rate the pitching skill for any particular player? The argument would have to rest on high-leverage pitching being more stressful and therefore requiring a workload adjustment similar to the one I would give to a starting pitcher for throwing a lot more innings than other candidates for the hall. The reliever cannot control what leverage he gets...that's a team factor controlled by the manager, the reliever partially (the better you are, the more you'll get used when it matters most), and the rest of his team (there have to be close, winnable games for you to pitch in).

I see you are a big WPA fan!

[Paul Wendt]

blahblah said,
"The most valuable player ever in baseball. He may be right."


add (close of inning 11 top)
But he's no Cliff Lee. They don't let him bat.

[White Knight]

How he got out of that inning was amazing. Yes, he mad a bad throw, but he got himself out of the mess with all ground balls.

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Mariano Rivera is just an incredible pitcher period. What an unbelievable post season resume: 8-1; 0.72 ERA; 77 H in 125 IP; 0.766 WHIP; only 2 HR allowed. I mean, it doesn't get any better than that. I doubt this performance from anybody with over 100 IP can ever be topped.

[whoisonit]

re: this must be yankee radio;

Originally Posted by Paul Wendt

blahblah said,
"The most valuable player ever in baseball. He may be right."

Yes that is yankee radio, ugh. The blowhard homer, sounding as if he were having an orgasm because Rivera, the closer, escaped an inning without allowing a run to score, finished his climax by reverently informing his victim listeners " a friend of mine, from the sport, has characterized Mariano Rivera as The Most Valuable Player in Baseball History. He may be right !".

[White Knight]

Originally Posted by whoisonit

re: this must be yankee radio;


Yes that is yankee radio, ugh. The blowhard homer, sounding as if he were having an orgasm because Rivera, the closer, escaped an inning without allowing a run to score, finished his climax by reverently informing his victim listeners " a friend of mine, from the sport, has characterized Mariano Rivera as The Most Valuable Player in Baseball History. He may be right !".

That wasn't just any inning, that was a major jam.

[PVNICK]

Didn't he exacerbate the jam by throwing wildly to third? And at any rate a lot of credit should go Tex's way. Imagine if Giambino was still at 1B.

[EdTarbusz]

I found it ironic that the most valuable player in MLB history was pulled for a pinch-hitter.

[White Knight]

Originally Posted by PVNICK

Didn't he exacerbate the jam by throwing wildly to third? And at any rate a lot of credit should go Tex's way. Imagine if Giambino was still at 1B.

Yes he did. But he did get himself out of it. Tex is amazing, he also helped a lot. Only Donnie played a better Yankee defense in my lifetime.

[dgarza]

Originally Posted by White Knight

Yes he did. But he did get himself out of it. Tex is amazing, he also helped a lot. Only Donnie played a better Yankee defense in my lifetime.

Tino Martinez was right up there. And (depending on how old you are) Chris Chambliss played some GG 1B.

[White Knight]

Originally Posted by dgarza

Tino Martinez was right up there. And (depending on how old you are) Chris Chambliss played some GG 1B.

I'm 36. I think Tex is better at defense than Tino. I forgot about Doug Mientkiewicz though, he was amazing.

[whoisonit]

Originally Posted by EdTarbusz

I found it ironic that the most valuable player in MLB history was pulled for a pinch-hitter.

This made me laugh !

[Bravesfan1984]

Even though I am not a big fan of putting relievers in the HOF Rivera defintly should go due to his dominace in the regular and postseason.

[Los Bravos]

Originally Posted by dgarza

And (depending on how old you are) Chris Chambliss played some GG 1B.

Yes, he did

[Fuzzy Bear]

The Yanks are about to win the WS with Rivera on the mound, so he will, in all likelihood, be adding to his legend.

Mariano's a HOFer, and a 1st ballot pick, I predict.

[White Knight]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Bear

The Yanks are about to win the WS with Rivera on the mound, so he will, in all likelihood, be adding to his legend.

Mariano's a HOFer, and a 1st ballot pick, I predict.

Not only is he 100% certain to be 1st ballot HOFer, but he is going in with 95%+ of the the vote.

[J W]

Yeah; I think the only thing to debate at this point is where Rivera would place among pitchers in MLB history, including starting pitchers. And that's a difficult argument to quantify.

Rivera is the #1 closer in the history of baseball... and the only relief pitcher with a case against him is the ageless Hoyt Wilhelm.

[brett]

Originally Posted by henrich

I think Hoffman, Rivera, Lee Smith definitely get in with Franco right on the borderline just in. I have Randy Myers just out, and at this time Billy Wagner needs to do a lot more to get in.

I put in Wilhelm and Eck for their combined work as starters and relievers.

And I put Rivera in. No one had compared to his dominance for as long even though he is really a "closer". Gossage would be the only real career "fireman" in the hall then and he probably deserves it. He has a 127 ERA+ for around 1800 innings but his ERA+ gets dominated by a couple of early developmental years as a starter (because the higher innings take over his rates).

He had a 139 ERA+ for nearly 1600 innings starting in '75 and a 146 ERA+ for over 1200 innings starting in '77. 155 for over 1000 innings from '77 though '89.

I would not put in anyone else, and definitely not Sutter, or Fingers or Smith. Hoffmann may deserve it on record setting.

[PVNICK]

Originally Posted by brett

I put in Wilhelm and Eck for their combined work as starters and relievers.

And I put Rivera in. No one had compared to his dominance for as long even though he is really a "closer". Gossage would be the only real career "fireman" in the hall then and he probably deserves it. He has a 127 ERA+ for around 1800 innings but his ERA+ gets dominated by a couple of early developmental years as a starter (because the higher innings take over his rates).

He had a 139 ERA+ for nearly 1600 innings starting in '75 and a 146 ERA+ for over 1200 innings starting in '77. 155 for over 1000 innings from '77 though '89.

I would not put in anyone else, and definitely not Sutter, or Fingers or Smith. Hoffmann may deserve it on record setting.

Why down on Fingers? Sutter gets a lot of flak but he had only a 10 year career total so I can see that.

[J W]

I don't get it either. To me it's either both Gossage and Fingers, or neither. They are each other's most similar pitcher.

[PVNICK]

Its not really just Brett, i've seen it whenver the topic gets discussed.

[dgarza]

Originally Posted by brett

I would not put in anyone else, and definitely not Sutter, or Fingers or Smith. Hoffmann may deserve it on record setting.

If Hoffman may deserve on record setting (a 4 year feat), then Fingers and Smith should as well (12+ year feats).

[Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan]

Just taking another look at Rivera's post season escapes is a thing to behold. This past playoffs, he pitched 16 IP only yielding 1 ER and 10 hits. For his career, he is now 8-1 in 133 IP with 39 SV and an 0.773 WHIP! I don't think they'll ever be a more dominant showing over similar innings in my lifetime - all done in the most crucial game situations and often more 1 2/3 innings or more.

It's been asked many times before but I still haven't found the answer: How can someone who throws the same pitch over & over continue to dominate hitters so thoroughly? I'm still dumbfounded by his results considering a batter only has to look for 1 pitch. That cut fastball is probably the single most dominant pitch by any pitcher in baseball history.

[Ace Venom]

Originally Posted by brett

I would not put in anyone else, and definitely not Sutter, or Fingers or Smith. Hoffmann may deserve it on record setting.

If you wouldn't put Lee Smith in for having the career saves record at one point, then there's zero reason to put Hoffmann in just because he has it. It certainly didn't help Lee Smith's case when he held the record, only to be passed by Hoffmann and later Rivera. As it stands, I would throw Hoffmann in there as well as Smith. Rivera to me is a no brainer.