Ranking the HoF Players: 6-10

[DoubleX]

I have to say, I'm really amazed by how few ballots Jackie Robinson has appeared on. Historically, there are very few players who are significant as Robinson. Sure, there is some arbitrariness to the fact that he was the first, but the fact remains that he was the first and excelled with grace. As I said last time, there's a good reason that statutes of Robinson, Clemente, and Gehrig have been selected to greet every visitor at the entrance of the Hall of Fame.

[J W]

Yeah, you've got a point. If there's any player whose on-field stats are irrelevant, it's Jackie. Since that's what you're driving at with this project, I'll adjust.

1. Honus Wagner (10)
2. Josh Gibson (9)
3. Walter Johnson (8)
4. Jackie Robinson (7)
5. Lefty Grove (6)
6. Pete Alexander (5)
7. Eddie Collins (4)
8. Tris Speaker (3)
9. Stan Musial (2)
10. Tom Seaver (1)

[PVNICK]

1. Wagner
2. Walter Johnson
3. Gehrig
4. Jackie Robinson
5. Musial
6. Satchel Paige
7. Cy Young
8. Speaker
9. Hornsby
10. Mathewson

[The Dude]

I have to say, I'm really amazed by how few ballots Jackie Robinson has appeared on. Historically, there are very few players who are significant as Robinson. Sure, there is some arbitrariness to the fact that he was the first, but the fact remains that he was the first and excelled with grace. As I said last time, there's a good reason that statutes of Robinson, Clemente, and Gehrig have been selected to greet every visitor at the entrance of the Hall of Fame.

Agreed. I feel like people are just reverting back to their usual "best players" rankings and removing people who aren't in the HoF from their lists.

1. Jackie Robinson - 10 Points, Ballot # 2 (Most recognizable name outside of Ruth & Young. His impact is obviously still felt today and reaches far beyond baseball)
2. Cy Young - 9 Points, Ballot # 2 (His name is synonymous with great pitching. His record of wins is the most untouchable in sports.)
3. Grover Cleveland Alexander - 8 Points, Ballot #2 (One of the top 3 pitchers of all-time IMHO, deserves a spot in the top ten for that alone)
4. Roberto Clemente - 7 Points, Ballot #2 (Everything stated by DX)
5. Cal Ripken Jr. - 6 Points, Ballot #2 (You can call him saving baseball a myth, but there are plenty of myths about old-timers still propagated around. Plus, no recent hall of famer is near Cal's level of fame)
6. Rogers Hornsby - 5 Points, Ballot #1 (Greatest 2B of all time. Still known today as the man all 2B are judged by).
7. Honus Wagner - 4 Points, Ballot #1 (Everything I said about Hornsby except at SS)
8. John Montgomery Ward - 3 Points, Ballot #1 (Founded Players Union and Players League)
9. Cap Anson - 2 Points, Ballot #1 (Greatest player of the 19th century).
10. King Kelly - 1 Point, Ballot #1 (Huge innovator for the game. Arguably baseball's first super-star)

[brett]

I have to say, I'm really amazed by how few ballots Jackie Robinson has appeared on. Historically, there are very few players who are significant as Robinson. Sure, there is some arbitrariness to the fact that he was the first, but the fact remains that he was the first and excelled with grace. As I said last time, there's a good reason that statutes of Robinson, Clemente, and Gehrig have been selected to greet every visitor at the entrance of the Hall of Fame.

I'd put him 15th to 20th counting Negro Leaguers for significance. The thing is that if baseball had not been made a national passion by by the great players that came before Robinson, then his accomplishement becomes less significant. Robinson, Clemente and Gehrig are viewed as baseball's martyrs, and they also serve as icons for black, hispanic and white baseball players. I also want to give proper credit to Gibson, Charleston, and Paige who didn't have the chance to be first. They magnified the importance of having someone be the first, so while he is great, he is a kind of glue that binds the Negro league greats, the early MLB greats, and the great players who came after him-but not standing at the head of them in my opinion.

[jjpm74]

Counting Robinson's pioneering role, he is around #16 in my rankings behind Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige and Oscar Charleston.

[Cowtipper]

1) Walter Johnson (10)
2) Cy Young (9)
3) Christy Mathewson (8)
4) Lou Gehrig (7)
5) Stan Musial (6)
6) Honus Wagner (5)
7) Tris Speaker (4)
8) Mickey Mantle (3)
9) Grover Cleveland Alexander (2)
10) Tom Seaver (1)

[BigRon]

1. Jackie Robinson
2. Honus Wagner
3. Cy Young
4. Lou Gehrig
5. Walter Johnson

6. Stan Musial
7. Josh Gibson
8. Mickey Mantle
9. Cap Anson
10. Joe DiMaggio

[Jar of Flies]

1) Wagner, Honus
2) Johnson, Walter
3) Gibson, Josh
4) Speaker, Tris
5) Mantle, Mickey
6) Young, Cy
7) Hornsby, Rogers
8) Musial, Stan
9) Gehrig, Lou
10) Robinson, Jackie

[DoubleX]

Robinson, Clemente and Gehrig are viewed as baseball's martyrs, and they also serve as icons for black, hispanic and white baseball players..

But that's exactly the point - they are icons. Their fame transcended the sport and they all represent something greater that millions can easily relate and aspire to. Yeah, Paige, Gibson, and Charleston may have been better players than Robinson and may have been more famous had any of them been the first, but the simple fact remains that Robinson was the first and in being the first, he has taken on much greater level of fame and symbolism. That plain reality cannot be denied. Robinson was handpicked as the first for a reason, and performed with grace in every sense. His moment, which is undeniably his moment, is a great and pivotal moment in the nation's history because of how important baseball was and because of how he performed. Sure, if it wasn't him, it would have eventually been someone else, but it was him. To pass him over is to deny his massive historical importance beyond just his individual baseball skills, IMO.

I think a similar argument goes for Clemente who I anticipate being very underrated in these rankings. Purely on his achievements as a player, maybe Clemente cracks my top 50, but in this election, where subjective factors come into play, Clemente's status as an "icon" as you say, is undeniable and inspirational to an entire population that has embraced the game. Someone like Tris Speaker was a much better player, but Clemente is a hero to far many more than Speaker likely ever was or will be, and that should count for something here. Baseball, and particularly the Hall of Fame, is in many ways about honoring heroes, icons if you will, individuals who seem to embody what is great about the game and perhaps beyond, and Clemente fits that criteria perfectly, IMO.

EDIT: In re-reading your post, I would expect you to only be voting for the likes of Cap Anson, King Kelly, Jim O'Rourke, and other early greats, as the game would not have been the National Pastime if not for them. If not for their early stardom and influence in the game, there would be not Ruth, no Mays, no Aaron, no Wagner, and so forth.

[Chadwick]

1. Honus Wagner
2. Mickey Mantle
3. Josh Gibson
4. Walter Johnson
5. Tris Speaker
6. Roger Hornsby
7. Cy Young
8. Oscar Charleston
9. Stan Musial
10. Lou Gehrig

Amended my ballot. Inserted Speaker at #5 and dropped #10 Alexander completely.

[jjpm74]

But that's exactly the point - they are icons. Their fame transcended the sport and they all represent something greater that millions can easily relate and aspire to. Yeah, Paige, Gibson, and Charleston may have been better players than Robinson and may have been more famous had any of them been the first, but the simple fact remains that Robinson was the first and in being the first, he has taken on much greater level of fame and symbolism. That plain reality cannot be denied. Robinson was handpicked as the first for a reason, and performed with grace in every sense. His moment, which is undeniably his moment, is a great and pivotal moment in the nation's history because of how important baseball was and because of how he performed. Sure, if it wasn't him, it would have eventually been someone else, but it was him. To pass him over is to deny his massive historical importance beyond just his individual baseball skills, IMO.

Not really. To pass him over here is to have a different opinion on his impact. There is no statistical way to quantify greatness or the impact of his role, so people are going to have different opinions on the subject. Does Larry Doby deserve to me in the top 20 because of his pioneering role? He was the first black player in the AL and his debut was a mere 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson's debut.

[DoubleX]

Not really. To pass him over here is to have a different opinion on his impact. There is no statistical way to quantify greatness or the impact of his role, so people are going to have different opinions on the subject. Does Larry Doby deserve to me in the top 20 because of his pioneering role? He was the first black player in the AL and his debut was a mere 11 weeks after Jackie Robinson's debut.

Is Doby generally elevated not just in the annals of baseball history, but in societal history, to the level of Robinson? Reality is reality, and in this case the reality is that Robinson has been elevated in a transcendent way, far above and beyond most every other player in the game's history. You may personally disagree with Robinson deserves such historical significance, but the reality is he's been ascribed such significance. For additional example to the statue one I gave above - how many other MLB numbers have been retired by every team? What African American player was inducted into the Hall before Robinson? How many other baseball players made Time's list of the most influential people of the 20th Century? What's the name of baseball's RoY Award? The fact is Robinson's legacy, both in and out of the game, has been greatly elevated to a level that may only be matched by Ruth, and that is a factor that shouldn't be minimized in this project.

[jjpm74]

Is Doby generally elevated not just in the annals of baseball history, but in societal history, to the level of Robinson? Reality is reality, and in this case the reality is that Robinson has been elevated in a transcendant way, far above and beyond most every other player in the game's history.

Take his impact out of the equation and he is in Ryne Sandberg/Roberto Alomar country. People seem to be agreeing with you that Jackie Robinson deserves to be elevated quite a bit because of his impact on the game and his cultural impact. Just not to the level of top 10 all time.

[DoubleX]

Sorry, I edited my post above to add some things before you responded. You're too quick.