Lou Gehrig vs. Mickey Mantle

[TRfromBR]

So, again, you give nothing. DiMag4life "snickers" instead of explaining it as well. I'm not surprised. No real answer, so dance around it.

I'd also like you to find ONE of my posts that says that I think Bonds did not take steroids or did not cheat. I agree he did both. You've just proven my theory on your 'you're either with me or against me' routine.

If I am mistaken that you have not defended Bonds steroid use and cheating, then I sit corrected. Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else. Perhaps not. You tell me, have you not defended Bonds' steroid use and cheating? I know Ubi & West Coast - the guys you likened yourself to in this conversation - have done so incessantly. I certainly don't recall you ever disagreeing with their defense of his cheating. Have you?

For ease of reference on this page, I'll re-post the photo of Mantle's fall, and ask you where you see any possible indication that DiMaggio caused that fall.

[Westlake]

If I am mistaken that you have not defended Bonds steroid use and cheating, then I sit corrected. Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else. Perhaps not. You tell me, have you not defended Bonds' steroid use and cheating? I know Ubi & West Coast - the guys you likened yourself to in this conversation - have done so incessantly. I certainly don't recall you ever disagreeing with their defense of his cheating.

For ease of reference on this page, I'll re-post the photo of Mantle's fall, and ask you where you see any possible indication that DiMaggio caused that fall.

I haven't defended any steroid use or cheating, TR. I've said i'd like to know the whole truth before condemning everything the man has done... but it's pretty obvious he's a cheat.

I don't see where DiMaggio caused the fall in the picture, but that's not what you said. You said that was proof that he didn't, which I also do not see in the picture.

[Westlake]

Then you didn't read my post from the other page. If you don't agree with it, there's absolutely nothing me or TR can say for you to believe it. The reasoning was right there, but you choose to ignore it, then try to mock me on how I didn't provide a theory.


*cries with laughter*

I knew this BS story (DiMaggio allegedly causing the incident) would show up again. I think we should give blame where it's due, and that's the risen sprinkler.


And get your facts straight. Yogi Berra said "he never had to lunge....... he always caught the ball in the AIR, chest high." So I guess when he went for a shoe-string catch, he caught the ball chest high.


Mantle, god bless him, was a pretty clumsy man. I think we shouldn't blame this on him one bit, but if you're going to make assumption, I'll join you.

Dude muscles was even quoted as saying he was surprised that DiMaggio got even near the ball.

He underestimated DiMaggio's range.


*sign*.

This one? First of all, I can't really understand a couple of the things you wrote (I doubt i'm alone in that as well). Also, where are you saying anything about the picture?

[Dodgerfan1]

For ease of reference on this page, I'll re-post the photo of Mantle's fall, and ask you where you see any possible indication that DiMaggio caused that fall.

DiMaggio wouldn't have had to be right on top of Mantle for him to be heard calling for a ball, if that's what happened. Mantle could have easily pulled up after hearing Joe calling for it, fell (as the photo shows), and DiMaggio could have continued running into the frame and caught the ball as shown. That picture does not prove that the fall was not caused by DiMaggio. Again, I am NOT saying that it was, only that that is a story I have heard more than once, and I've read other things about Joe D and his showboating once in a while in center. I don't demand, or even ask, that you believe it. It's out there, though. That's all I'm saying.

[DiMag4Life]

Here's a post from shoeless joe in another thread. If this doesn't change your mind, literally nothing will:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpost.php?p=656759&postcount=19

[TRfromBR]

There's no telling, in this photo, how DiMaggio necessarily came to be in that position.

There's no evidence in this photo whatsoever that DiMaggio caused Mantle's fall. Mantle was clearly on the ground long before DiMaggio was anywhere near him. In fact, even at the time of his reaching catch, DiMaggio is still nowhere near Mantle. It's plain as day that Mantle went down absent of any collision with, or interference by, DiMaggio. Knowing that Mantle stepped on a drain makes this all the more apparent.

Rather than requiring proof of a negative, where is the evidence that this story has any basis in truth?

[TRfromBR]

I haven't defended any steroid use or cheating, TR. I've said i'd like to know the whole truth before condemning everything the man has done... but it's pretty obvious he's a cheat.

I don't see where DiMaggio caused the fall in the picture, but that's not what you said. You said that was proof that he didn't, which I also do not see in the picture.

Okay, Westlake. I respect your positions. I'm not sure why you came out of nowhere attacking me. But, it's water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned.

[Dodgerfan1]

There's no evidence in this photo whatsoever that DiMaggio caused Mantle's fall. Mantle was clearly on the ground long before DiMaggio was anywhere near him. In fact, even at the time of his reaching catch, DiMaggio is still nowhere near Mantle. It's plain as day that Mantle went down absent of any collision with, or interference by, DiMaggio. Knowing that Mantle stepped on a drain makes this all the more apparent.

Rather than requiring proof of a negative, where is the evidence that this story has any basis in truth?

Again, neither is there proof that DiMaggio did NOT cause the fall by calling Mantle off at the last second, causing Mickey to pull up prematurely. What I'm saying is that the photo is far from obvious in either respect. It only shows a snapshot in time. A fraction of a second recorded.

In a previous post, I made an aside that the fall was probably caused by DiMaggio. I probably should have said it has been alleged by some to have been caused by Joe. Still, in either case, you would have strongly disagreed and we would still be having this debate. You say I can't prove a negative. You are absolutely right, and I never said I could. You, however, in trying to prove a positive, have also failed to do so. That picture does not constitute any proof whatsoever that DiMaggio did NOT call Mantle off, causing him to pull up, so you haven't proven anything either.

Let's call a truce, please, because this is starting to give me a headache. It's far afield from the topic and is unproveable by anything either of us have said or shown.

[Westlake]

Okay, Westlake. I respect your positions. I'm not sure why you came out of nowhere attacking me. But, it's water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned.

My apologies. This thread is not about JoeD, so lets swing it back to Mantle and Gehrig.

[TRfromBR]

DiMaggio wouldn't have had to be right on top of Mantle for him to be heard calling for a ball, if that's what happened. Mantle could have easily pulled up after hearing Joe calling for it, fell (as the photo shows), and DiMaggio could have continued running into the frame and caught the ball as shown. That picture does not prove that the fall was not caused by DiMaggio. Again, I am NOT saying that it was, only that that is a story I have heard more than once, and I've read other things about Joe D and his showboating once in a while in center. I don't demand, or even ask, that you believe it. It's out there, though. That's all I'm saying.

That's a lot of if's-maybe's-and-could have's, DF1. This photo definitely shifts the burden of proof to those who contend DiMaggio caused Mantle's fall. There's absolutely nothing in it that indicates Dimaggio was in the wrong. Everything indicates Mantle took a fall independent of where DiMaggio was located. Mantle stepped on a sprinkler or drain.

Again, with regard to DiMaggio "showboating" in centerfield, when precisely did this occur? I don't recall ever hearing that particular accusation before.

[TRfromBR]

My apologies. This thread is not about JoeD, so lets swing it back to Mantle and Gehrig.

My apologies, also, Westlake. Back to Mantle and Gehrig it is.

[TRfromBR]

In light of our discussions concerning the photographic record, Shoeless Joe's citation of Mickey's own words make it doubly certain that Dimaggio did not cause Mantle's fall. Likewise, there's no evidence of any "intentionally late starts" or "showboating" on the part of DiMaggio - in the '51 World Series, or at any other time during his career. Such attacks on his character are totally false and warranted.

http:<span style="color:Red">//www.b...ount=19</span>

[TRfromBR]

[In final reply to Dodgerfan1]

In further support of my points concerning the photographic record, Shoeless Joe's citation of Mickey's own words make it doubly certain that Dimaggio did not cause Mantle's fall. Likewise, there's no evidence whatsoever of any "intentionally late starts" or "showboating" on the part of DiMaggio - on May's fly, in the '51World Series, or at any other time during his stellar fielding career. Such assaults on his character are totally false and warranted.

_______________________________ http://www.baseball-fever.com/showpo...9&postcount=19 ______________________________

[CTaka]

Back to the Gehrig vs Mantle part of the thread, I voted for Mickey. I am a big Gehrig fan and find him to be a most admirable superstar. But like a lot of kids back then, I wanted to be Mickey Mantle when I was young.

Gehrig's OPS+ edge is a wash to me when you factor in LQ adjustments and positional adjustments (OK, I know I lost White Knight right there). With the OPS+ about even, Mantle is clearly the more valuable player on defense. In terms of Win Shares, Mantle leads in Career WS, top 5 seasons, and WS per 162 games. I agree they are fairly close, but I am comfortable casting my vote for Mickey.

[KCGHOST]

They are pretty even in my mind. They both even have "what ifs" about their careers.