Whip, Swivel, Early Bat Speed, Torque, and Such

[JJA]

FFS,

Here is an explanation of how shutters work, midway down demonstrates a rolling shutter (commonly used in high speed cameras) which should make it apparent how artifacts in Chris' video can occur. This is a well known problem. The previous article should help you understand that there is no significant bending of the bat during the swing, though of course it does occur right at/after contact.

http://www.dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

-JJA

P.S. Mud, I'll get to your post in detail later this evening. Please be patient as I'm exceedingly busy most of the day. This is where I actually do know what I'm talking about...

[FiveFrameSwing]

A video artifact.

The fact that the bat bends more at the top and bottom of the frame is an interaction between the bat and the shutter of the camera. While I wish it did, the truth is that it doesn't say anything about how fast the bat is moving at different points in time during the swing.

Doesn't that contradict what you said in your earlier post when you wrote "The degree of distortion will be larger the faster the object is moving."

[4for4]

This is quite a shock to me. For I still clearly remember the days when JJA, Jofus, 4for4, Ohfor, and many others said Jim was completely off base on his analysis of the swing and with what he teaches. As far as I know Jim hasn't changed his views on what he teaches over the last few years. Interesting that all these other views have.

"As far as [you] know...."???????:noidea

You are misremembering and need to do a lot more reading on the subject.... I've said for as long as I can remember that Booth is one of the few that I would be OK with working with my own...Neither of us are monoliths so we may see some things differently from time to time. If you rewrite your passage with just the last character you mention, you would be on point.

[Chris O'Leary]

Doesn't that contradict what you said in your earlier post when you wrote "The degree of distortion will be larger the faster the object is moving."

No.

It clarifies it.

The distortion is only a problem for objects that are...

1. Oriented vertically.
2. Moving rapidly.

That's why you see bending when the bat is at the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock positions not when it's at the 9 o'clock position.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Yes.

Also, and I got this wrong in the past, what you are seeing in the frames right before the POC is an artifact that is due to rapid movement, not deceleration. Paradoxically, if the bat was decelerating through the POC, then the bat would be straight, not curved.

The bend in the bat barrel, at contact, is in accordance with what I would expect ... that being the hands decelerating while the bat head continues to be whipped forward ... and hence the bend we see ... even if this bend may appear greater due to the shutter issue you spoke of.

[Chris O'Leary]

In the clip below, I'm turning a box and you can see that the bat gets moving without any hand force.

Jim,

Have you tried this with varying amounts of mass at the end of the "bat". If so, does that make any difference.

I assume it would.

[mudvnine]

FFS,

Here is an explanation of how shutters work, midway down demonstrates a rolling shutter (commonly used in high speed cameras) which should make it apparent how artifacts in Chris' video can occur. This is a well known problem. The previous article should help you understand that there is no significant bending of the bat during the swing, though of course it does occur right at/after contact.

http://www.dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

-JJA

P.S. Mud, I'll get to your post in detail later this evening. Please be patient as I'm exceedingly busy most of the day. This is where I actually do know what I'm talking about...

[FiveFrameSwing]

Here's Joe Mauer holding a constant forearm/bat angle for quite a long time.

Please explain the importance of this observation. Is it your opinion that supination of the rear forearm can't occur without breaking down the hinge angle? As you answer this, please take into account that many hitters under-go early-lae, the displacement of the lead elbow/arm and CHP.

[Chris O'Leary]

The bend in the bat barrel, at contact, is in accordance with what I would expect ... that being the hands decelerating while the bat head continues to be whipped forward ... and hence the bend we see ... even if this bend may appear greater due to the shutter issue you spoke of.

Again, you're not interpreting this correctly.

What you're seeing is an artifact, not something that is informative.

I wish it was, but it's not.

Let's please get back on topic.

[Chris O'Leary]

Please explain the importance of this observation. Is it your opinion that supination of the rear forearm can't occur without breaking down the hinge angle? As you answer this, please take into account that many hitters under-go early-lae, displacement of the lead elbow/arm and CHP.

If supination were to occur early on during the swing, then the angle between the front forearm and the bat, and the distance between the barrel of the bat and the deltoid, would change.

They don't, so it's clearly not happening.

I have demonstrated this with multiple clips.

Also, the main topic at hand is early bat speed and torque, which are purported to occur at the start of the swing. They clearly aren't happening (because there is no evidence for them).

I do think it's worth discussing the whip and what happens and why as long you concede that that isn't "early".

[Stealth]

I agree with all of this, think it's supported by what you see in my clips, and think you can stick a fork in the early bat speed and early torque debate as a result.

The question then becomes how much hand, wrist, or forearm force is involved in the whip.

The swing happens so fast, how is it possible to add something (to help the whip) after the swing has launched?

I think when you look at frames, especially at 60fps you get the wrong conclusion some times. These swings up close are so fast its hard to describe. Once these MLB guys go, the swing is over, done, complete IMHO. You better work the hands early rather than late............

[Chris O'Leary]

You better work the hands early rather than late............

If they were working the hands early, there would be some evidence for it.

And there isn't.

They may be doing something, but it doesn't appear to be what they think it is.

[FiveFrameSwing]

I agree with all of this, think it's supported by what you see in my clips, and think you can stick a fork in the early bat speed and early torque debate as a result.

Are you certain of this?

With an accentuation of forearm supination ... I don't get what Jim describes ... in fact I get the opposite.

I suspect there is some confusion ... and it may be on my end ... but when I experiment with various degrees of force applied to supination of the rear forearm, I don't get casting, but end up having my rear elbow tuck in closer to my side ... sort of the opposite of casting.

[FiveFrameSwing]

Again, you're not interpreting this correctly.

What you're seeing is an artifact, not something that is informative.

I wish it was, but it's not.

Let's please get back on topic.

Spare me Chris ... you of all people are one to drift off topic. As an FYI, what I wrote was hardly off topic.

[Stealth]

If they were working the hands early, there would be some evidence for it.

And there isn't.

They may be doing something, but it doesn't appear to be what they think it is.

What are they doing in frames 2-7?