Albright's musings

[jalbright]

I'm going to create this thread to replace the "data warehouse" thread. I want to put an index of topics and players discussed in the next few posts, so it will be easier for folks to accesss. That in turn should make all the materials in this thread easier to find for those using this thread. Like Bill Burgess' Ty Cobb thread, my goal here is to provide information resources for others, and would ask that you try to refrain from posting questions and comments here. With this in mind, I reserve the right to move any and all posts made by others here. If necessary, I will establish a discussion thread and provide a link here.

Almost all of the comments in this thread were originally posted in another thread. I will tell you which thread the comment is from if I can. If not, you could always quote my comment and begin another thread with your questions and comments. Of course, if you want my response, it would be wise to PM me to make sure I see your question or comment.

I'll start out by trying to group materials on Japan, Negro Leaguers, and the 19th century together, but over time, that arrangement will begin to fall apart.

Hope you find this useful.

Also, please note that post 21 allows you to link to any page in this thread.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Guide to discussions of worthiness of various Negro Leaguers and Japanese League players for BBF HOF in this thread

Cuban players
#410--Omar Linares


Negro League contributors
#64--Ed Bolden--ELECTED
#244-Andy Cooper
#61--Vic Harris
#244-Effa Manley
#244-Jose Mendez (he's still qualified as a contributor, but I've decided to back him as a player) ELECTED
#244-Buck O'Neil--ELECTED
#429-Alejandro Pompez
#65--Cum Posey--ELECTED
#62--C. I. Taylor--ELECTED
#63--Frank Warfield
#244-Sol White
#66--J. L. Wilkinson--ELECTED

Negro League Players
#41---In BBF HOF before bio created
#57---John Beckwith--ELECTED
#44---Ray Brown--ELECTED
#300--Willard Brown--ELECTED
#75---Perucho "The Bull" Cepeda--ELECTED
#399--Oscar Charleston--ELECTED
#367--Bus Clarkson
#43---Ray Dandridge--ELECTED
#54---Leon Day
#133--Bingo DeMoss
#396--Martin Dihigo--ELECTED
#53---Willie Foster--ELECTED
#227--Josh Gibson--ELECTED also #296
#47---Frank Grant--ELECTED
#55---Pete Hill--ELECTED
#42---Monte Irvin--ELECTED
#309--Will Jackman
#48---Grant "Home Run" Johnson--ELECTED
#134--Judy Johnson
#374--Oscar "Heavy" Johnson
#465--Buck Leonard
#401--John Henry "Pop" Lloyd--ELECTED
#349---Dick Lundy
#56---Biz Mackey--ELECTED
#133--Oliver Marcelle
#325--Jose Mendez--ELECTED
#59---Dobie Moore--ELECTED
#60---Alejandro Oms--ELECTED
#233--Satchel Paige--also post #398--ELECTED
#132--Spottswood Poles
#52---Cannonball Dick Redding--ELECTED
#45---Bullet Joe Rogan--ELECTED
#50---Louis Santop--ELECTED
#137--Chino Smith (also post #368)
#58---Hilton Smith--ELECTED
#400--Turkey Stearnes--ELECTED
#46---Mule Suttles--ELECTED
#133--Ben Taylor
#402--Cristobal Torriente--ELECTED
#348--Quincy Trouppe
#49---Willie Wells--ELECTED
#397--Smoky Joe Williams--ELECTED
#51---Jud Wilson--ELECTED

Japanese League Players
#187--Akira Bessho--ELECTED
#185--Yutaka Enatsu
#182--Isao Harimoto--ELECTED
#176--Kazuhisa Inao--ELECTED
#161--Masaichi Kaneda--ELECTED
#186--Masaaki Koyama
#181--Shigeo Nagashima--ELECTED
#180--Katsuya Nomura--ELECTED
#188--Hiromitsu Ochiai
#177--Victor Starffin--ELECTED
#189--Koji Yamamoto
#467--Tetsuharu Kawakami


Contributors
#208--Larry MacPhail--ELECTED
#209--Lefty O'Doul--ELECTED
#209--Matsutaro Shoriki (Japan)
#341--Marvin Miller--ELECTED
#342--Connie Mack--ELECTED
#427--Shigeru Mizuhara
#428--Jim Creighton
#435--Alexander Cartwright
#436--Henry Chadwick
#442--Ed Barrow
#454--Wilbert Robinson
#462--Tom Connolly
#464--Joe McCarthy

[jalbright]

Posts on various major leaguers
#423--Pete Alexander--ELECTED
#103--Dick Allen--ELECTED
#175--Roberto Alomar--ELECTED
#387--Cap Anson--ELECTED
#281--Luis Aparicio--ELECTED
#407--Luke Appling--ELECTED
#429--Buzz Arlett
#205--Richie Ashburn--ELECTED
#152--Earl Averill--ELECTED
#343--Jeff Bagwell--ELECTED
#267--Sal Bando
#146--Ross Barnes--ELECTED
#305--Jake Beckley
#151--Albert Belle--ELECTED
#412--Johnny Bench--ELECTED
#334--Chief Bender
#165--Charlie Bennett--ELECTED
#412--Yogi Berra--ELECTED
#415--Craig Biggio
#104--Bert Blyleven--see also #128--ELECTED
#198--Barry Bonds
#159--Bobby Bonds
#242--Bret Boone
#335--Jim Bottomley--also #432
#220--Lou Boudreau--ELECTED
#284--Ken Boyer--ELECTED
#136--Roger Bresnahan--ELECTED
#358--Tommy Bridges
#204--Lou Brock--ELECTED
#384--Dan Brouthers--ELECTED
#304--Kevin Brown
#424--Mordecai ("Three Finger") Brown--ELECTED
#324--Pete Browning
#214--Jim Bunning--ELECTED
#391--Jesse Burkett--ELECTED
#262--Max Carey--ELECTED
#121--Gary Carter--ELECTED
#125--Joe Carter
#288--Bob Caruthers--ELECTED
#309--Cesar Cedeno
#277--Orlando Cepeda--ELECTED
#16---Frank Chance as player and manager--ELECTED
#334--Jack Chesbro
#354--Cupid Childs--ELECTED
#218--Will Clark--ELECTED
#143--Fred Clarke--ELECTED
#388--John Clarkson--ELECTED
#413--Roger Clemens
#416--Ty Cobb--ELECTED
#418--Eddie Collins--ELECTED
#457--Jimmy Collins
#335--Earle Combs
#332--Dave Concepcion
#385--Roger Connor--ELECTED
#283--Wilbur Cooper
#239--Stan Coveleski--ELECTED
#353--Gavvy Cravath
#420--Sam Crawford--ELECTED
#241--Jose Cruz
#301--Kiki Cuyler
#111--Bill Dahlen--ELECTED
#118--George Davis--ELECTED
#213--Dizzy Dean--ELECTED
#383--Ed Delahanty--ELECTED
#408--Joe DiMaggio--ELECTED
#109--Larry Doby--ELECTED
#265--Bobby Doerr--ELECTED
#222--Larry Doyle--ELECTED
#215--Don Drysdale--ELECTED
#258--Hugh Duffy--ELECTED
#287--Darrell Evans--ELECTED
#330--Dwight Evans
#336--Johnny Evers--also #431
#386--Buck Ewing--ELECTED
#278--Red Faber--ELECTED
#336--Rick Ferrell
#282--Wes Ferrell--ELECTED
#232--Rollie Fingers--ELECTED
#263--Elmer Flick--ELECTED
#217--Nellie Fox--ELECTED
#210--Bill Freehan--ELECTED
#140--Pud Galvin--ELECTED
#126--Steve Garvey
#271--Jack Glasscock--ELECTED
#328--Lefty Gomez
#199--Joe Gordon--ELECTED
#286--George Gore--ELECTED
#112--Goose Goslin--ELECTED
#105--Goose Gossage--ELECTED
#200--Bobby Grich--ELECTED
#211--Burleigh Grimes--ELECTED--also post #463
#268--Heinie Groh--ELECTED
#356--Ron Guidry
#219--Stan Hack--ELECTED
#335--Chick Hafey
#334--Jesse Haines
#390--Billy Hamilton--ELECTED
#102--Rickey Henderson--ELECTED
#115--Billy Herman--ELECTED
#257--Keith Hernandez
#150--Paul Hines--ELECTED
#131--Gil Hodges
#335--Harry Hooper
#334--Waite Hoyt
#275--Catfish Hunter
#409--Joe Jackson--ELECTED
#336--Travis Jackson
#16---Hughie Jennings as manager and player--ELECTED
#319--Bob Johnson
#422--Walter Johnson--ELECTED
#240--Addie Joss--also #431
#149--Joe Judge
#392--Tim Keefe--ELECTED
#404--Wee Willie Keeler--ELECTED
#336--George Kell
#347--Charlie Keller
#285--Joe Kelley--ELECTED
#335--George Kelly
#141--King Kelly--ELECTED
#337--Ralph Kiner--ELECTED
#340--Dave Kingman
#155--Chuck Klein
#444--Sandy Koufax
#419--Nap LaJoie--ELECTED
#346--Bill Lange
#174--Barry Larkin--ELECTED
#336--Tony Lazzeri
#287--Tommy Leach
#212--Bob Lemon--ELECTED
#336--Fred Lindstrom
#235--Mickey Lolich
#336--Ernie Lombardi
#270--Herman Long
#178--Ted Lyons--ELECTED
#142--Sherry Magee--ELECTED
#302--Heinie Manush
#287--Rabbit Maranville--ELECTED
#193--Roger Maris
#334--Rube Marquard--also #433
#303--Edgar Martinez
#238--Tino Martinez
#421--Christy Mathewson--ELECTED
#279--Carl Mays--ELECTED
#147--Willie Mays--ELECTED
#124--Bill Mazeroski
#335--Tommy McCarthy
#395--Jim McCormick
#145--Joe McGinnity--ELECTED
#228--Fred McGriff--ELECTED
#236--Dave McNally
#269--Bid McPhee--ELECTED
#350--Cal McVey--ELECTED
#106--Minnie Minoso--ELECTED
#406--Johnny Mize--ELECTED
#139--Tony Mullane--ELECTED
#221--Dale Murphy--ELECTED
#403--Buddy Myer
#361--Graig Nettles
#183--Hal Newhouser--ELECTED
#393--Kid Nichols--ELECTED
#117--Phil Niekro--ELECTED
#237--Tony Oliva
#351--Al Oliver
#116--Jim O'Rourke--ELECTED
#329--Rafael Palmiero
#194--Dave Parker--ELECTED
#96---Dickey Pearce
#360--Herb Pennock
#216--Tony Perez--ELECTED
#394--Gaylord Perry--ELECTED
#280--Johnny Pesky
#414--Mike Piazza
#273--Billy Pierce
#94---Lip Pike
#426--Eddie Plank--ELECTED
#231--Dan Quisenberry--ELECTED
#108--Old Hoss Radbourn--ELECTED
#119--Tim Raines--ELECTED
#114--Pee Wee Reese--ELECTED
#125--Jim Rice
#276--Sam Rice
#163--Hardy Richardson--ELECTED
#166--Eppa Rixey--ELECTED
#339--Phil Rizzuto
#468--Jackie Robinson
#326--Edd Roush--ELECTED
#184--Red Ruffing--ELECTED
#120--Amos Rusie--ELECTED
#331--Jimmy Ryan
#260--Nolan Ryan--ELECTED
#336--Ray Schalk
#336--Red Schoendienst
#287--Joe Sewell--ELECTED
#344--Jimmy Sheckard
#179--Ted Simmons--ELECTED
#455--George Sisler
#148--Enos Slaughter--ELECTED
#345--Lee Smith
#352--Reggie Smith
#243--Sammy Sosa
#389--Al Spalding
#266--Vern Stephens
#95---Joe Start
#207--Harry Stovey--ELECTED
#230--Bruce Sutter--ELECTED
#203--Don Sutton--ELECTED
#164--Ezra Sutton--ELECTED
#453--Bill Terry
#237--Luis Tiant
#336--Joe Tinker
#136--Joe Torre (as a player)--ELECTED AS MANAGER
#201--Alan Trammell--ELECTED
#456--Pie Traynor
#264--George Van Haltren--ELECTED
#206--Rube Waddell--ELECTED
#419--Honus Wagner--ELECTED
#322--Larry Walker
#160--Bobby Wallace--ELECTED
#425--Ed Walsh--ELECTED
#272--Bucky Walters
#335--Lloyd Waner
#107--John Montgomery Ward ELECTED AS A CONTRIBUTOR
#357--Lon Warneke
#323--Mickey Welch
#110--Zack Wheat--ELECTED
#287--Lou Whitaker--ELECTED
#138--Deacon White--ELECTED
#355--Bernie Williams
#113--Billy Williams--ELECTED
#147--Ted Williams--ELECTED
#202--Vic Willis--ELECTED
#299--Maury Wills
#338--Hack Wilson--ELECTED
#98---George Wright--ELECTED
#144--Early Wynn--ELECTED
#157--Jimmy Wynn
#405--Cy Young--ELECTED
#335--Ross Youngs

[jalbright]

Posts on groups of individuals:
#9 through 11--rankings of my personal HOF
#12----Negro League Managers and Executives
#13----Media Contributors
#14----Pioneeer Contributors
#15----Japanese Managers
#16----Major League Managers
#17----Major League Executives
#22---rankings of those in my queue not in BBF HOF
#24----Japanese Players on my early ballots
#27----Japanese Players in my queue but not on my early ballots
#99 through 101--19th century players
#123---Mexican stars
#127---Ranking of Japanese stars I consider HOF worthy
#156---Best players of the 1990's
#158---leaders in win shares (pitchers and position players) by decade
#171---Ranking of managers by success points
#195--all time major league and non major league teams
#226--my all 19th century team
#310--my all 20th century team
#363--my all time blackball team of Cooperstown outsiders
#366--converting 19th century batting lines into MLB norms
#369--MLB comparables for some Negro League pitchers
#370--MLB comparables for some Negro League OF and C
#371--MLB comparables for some Negro League IF
#372--Negro Leaguers I think still need to be included in the HOF
#373--my Suburbs of Cooperstown draftees versus the bottom of the HOF
#376--MLB Comparables for Perucho Cepeda and Pancho Coimbre
#377--MLB Comparables for Leon Day and Ray Dandridge
#378--Best non-MLB international team
#403--Buddy Myer and Billy Herman compared
#411--MLBers not in HOF all-time team
#434--links to Bill Burgess' work on Francis Richter and John B. Foster, and many sportswriters
#445 through 450--manager leader lists
#451--Deadball award winners.
#459--Some more Negro Leaguer comps (Rile, Monroe, Poles, HR Johnson, and "Double Duty" Radcliffe

Rankings by position
#11------------all players in my personal HOF
#19------------Top 25 retired players per rating system
#20------------Cooperstown's biggest mistakes in inclusions
#122-----------best players not yet in Cooperstown by position
#129-----------ten worst pitchers in HOF
#167-----------relief ace rating system
#274-----------change to my rating system for 60 foot 6 inch pitching distance pitchers

[jalbright]

Posts on various topics

#6----how I construct my ballot
#7----my current ballot
#8----the current voter guide
#18---rating system discussed
#23---Links to all my writings on top Japanese players and managers
#24---Thumbnails of top Japanese players plus links to targeted writings on same
#25---Most similar major leaguers to leading Japanese candidates
#26---link to some of my key articles on Japanese candidates for Cooperstown
#28 to 36--Japanese players, the Japanese Hall and Cooperstown
#37 and 38--Negro League versus Japanese stars
#39---Comment on limitations of data other than from major leagues after 1900
#40---Key references for info in Negro Leaguer comments
#67---link to Baseball Think Factory discussions on Negro Leaguers
#68 and 69--Negro League links to bios and data
#70---Mulitple listings by James latest Historical Abstract as best player/pitcher of year in Negro Leagues
#71---Negro League honors
#72---How many Negro Leaguers should we honor?
#73 and 74--different aspects of Negro League play
#76 to 86--discussion of use of statistical versus anecdotal evidence
#87---comment on 2006 vote for Negro Leaguers
#88---Pre 1871 statistics
#89---George Wright pre 1871 stats
#90---Joe Start pre 1871 stats
#91---Dickey Pearce pre 1871 stats
#92---Deacon White and Lip Pike pre 1871 stats
#93---comments on several pre 1871 players
#130--various lines for inclusion/exclusion to the HOF
#135--review of catcher playing time
#153--longevity and consistency
#154--Frisch's teammates selected by VC to HOF
#162--how to handle HOF cases of players who allegedly used performance enhancing drugs
#168--Negro League all-star teams by city/state/region
#169--Key players on some very talented Negro League squads
#170--Why didn't Negro League pitchers succeed like Negro League hitters did?
#171--Evaluations of Japanese stars in McNeil's Baseball's Other Stars
#190--Number of regular starting pitchers 1876-1892
#191--Negro League evaluations as an exercise in circumstantial evidence
#192--Web resources for Japanese stats
#196--BBF resources on converting stats from Cuban baseball to MLB equivalents
#197--Clay Davenport article on converting stats from Cuban baseball under Castro to MLB equivalents
#208--Larry MacPhail--ELECTED
#223--Judge Landis' legacy
#224--why 19th century players need some adjustment upward for their shorter schedules
#225--why Japanese pitchers from 1960-80 walked guys less than their major league counterparts
#229--Rickey Henderson versus Billy Hamilton as a leadoff hitter
#234--Jimmy Wynn and how we make home park adjustments
#246--Enos Slaughter compared to Kirby Puckett
#247--Tuffy Rhodes' home run totals in Japan
#248--The Favorite Toy Method and fluke seasons
#249--Eddie Collins versus Joe Morgan
#250--Julio Franco and International baseball stats
#251--competitive balance is not the same as quality of play.
#252--use of home/road splits
#253--the HOF chances of Pete Rose versus those of Joe Jackson
#254--model for how I evaluate the HOF chances of active players (Pujols, Rolen and Edmonds)
#255--Factors for and against improvement in the quality of play
#256--the 1901 AL and 1960's AL were not minor league quality
#259--link to discussions of issue of measuring league quality
#260--comparison of top pitchers of 1970's
#261--link to discussion of permitting international players in the HOF
#289--discussion of why I use the categories I do in evaluating players
#290--discussion of why average quality of play can be deceptive in evaluating players from Japan, the Negro Leagues, and the 19th century
#291--one way to tell who the best Negro Leaguers were: who were the draws?
#292--Some poll results on who the all-time Negro Leaguers were
#293--Experts All-Time teams which include non MLB players
#294--some expert picks on all-time Japanese players
#295--how Casey Stengel used Whitey Ford
#297--link to Negro League data thread
#268--link to Negro League award thread
#307--Griffith Stadium's effect on HR during Josh Gibson's career
#308--Impact of Ruth being a pitcher on development of his batting style.
#311--Impact of being a foreign born child of non-US citizens on getting into the HOF
#312--Links to specially informative (IMO) BBF threads
#313--Why is the path to the majors so difficult for Cuban defectors?
#314--Billy Southworth and managing during wartime
#315--George Steinbrenner's worthiness of a spot in the HOF
#316--George Weiss' baseball career--ELECTED
#317--Hughie Jennings' playing and managerial careers--ELECTED
#318--The 1971 HOF class
#320--Clark Griffith--ELECTED
#321--The role of "fame" in HOF selections
#327--Joe Gordon versus Bobby Doerr
#364--Bill James' ranking of top Negro Leaguers, and listing of those Negro Leaguers nominated for the HOF in 2006 but not inducted
#379--3000 hits and 300 wins
#380--Bill James' comment on HOF candidacies (compare them to the available choices)
#381--collection of links to my arguments in favor of admitting international players to Cooperstown.
#382--comparing pitchers across eras
#431--parallels between Joss and Evers
#437--why we have less 3B in the HOF from before the 1930's
#438--comparison of Sisler and Beckley
#440--info on National Association win shares calculation.
#441--info on National Association win shares calculation.
#442--info on National Association win shares calculation.
#452--The Cobb/Speaker scandal
#458--Joss, Waddell and Dean compared to their respective peers.
#460--The "illegality" argument against PEDs
#461--The Negro Leagues adaptation to the 1920's explosion in HR hitting
#466--Bucky Walters 1938-41

[jalbright]

Initially, in the BBF HOF voting, I started with the best team concept for my ballot. Actually, I start with the idea of the top two at each everyday position and nine pitchers--kind of like a team roster. I will restrict myself to no more than 3 Japanese pitchers, and I've got to allow at least 2-3 spots for major league pitchers at the modern distance. Breaking it down by position usually helps, though with an exceptional case like John Montgomery Ward (pitcher/shortstop), it doesn't work too well.

Of course, I want qualified candidates, and later on, I had to look more at electability issues.

I'm trying to make it a rule of my balloting that whenever a player has gotten at least 50% of the vote, it's on me to justify keeping him out, and if he's gotten less than 50%, it's on me to justify his inclusion.

The next group of candidates I want to support are those at the top of each category of queue. I'm having a harder time putting these groups in order in the contributors ballot because there's less objective ways to make comparisons, and am much more willing to be guided by vote totals. Managers are a bit of an exception, as there's at least a reasonable amount of objective data to work with.

When it comes to overloads at one position and deficits at another I try to make the kinds of moves you'd see on real teams. Basically, I believe in the "defensive spectrum" proposed by Bill James (SS-2B-CF-3B-RF-LF-1B-DH, in descending order of defensive value). Catchers can be moved to first base or possibly left field, but unless they played significant time elsewhere, I won't drop somebody from another position to get another catcher on the ballot. I'll let guys take the spots of lesser players at less demanding defensive positions but not more demanding defensive positions (I might bend this rule in the outfield). That's what real teams do to maximize their talent while trying to keep a solid defense on the field. If your best fifteen everyday players are all OF/1B/DH types, you're not going to leave spring training with that group. You'd want to make trades to shore up your weaknesses from that overload of talent. Even if you couldn't, such a team would be awful in the field. Also, you want to have qualified backups to give guys rest and to guard against injury.

If you look at it that way, you leave yourself some flexibility. Guidelines are great, but if you follow any of them too rigidly, you're going into a trap.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

My 2008 annual ballot

key:
red=Japanese League
blue=Negro Leagues
green=19th century
magenta=Castro-era Cuban

Players

1. Sal Bando, 3b
2. Barry Bonds, of
3. Craig Biggio, 2b
4. Bus Clarkson, ss
5. Roger Clemens, p
6 Leon Day, p
7. Yutaka Enatsu, p
8. Charlie Keller, of
9. Masaaki Koyama, p (Japan)
10. Tommy Leach, 3b/cf
11. Omar Linares, 3b
12. Herman Long, ss
13. Dick Lundy, ss
14. Hiromitsu Ochiai 1B/3B (Japan)
15. Mike Piazza, c
16. Phil Rizzuto, ss
17. Sammy Sosa, of
18. Vern Stephens, ss
19. Quincy Trouppe, c
20. Bucky Walters, p

Anyone who wants more information on these or other players, please see my latest player voting guide

Contributors
1. Buck Canel
2. Harry Caray
3. Bob Davids
4. Vic Harris
5. Dr. Frank Jobe
6. Paul Krichell
7. Billy Martin
8. Shigeru Mizuhara
9. David Neft
10. Dan Okrent
11. Dickey Pearce
12. Felo Ramirez
13. Matsutaro Shoriki
14. Ty Tyson
15. Frank Warfield

Anyone who wants more information on these or other players, please see my latest contributor guide

[jalbright]

BBF HOF player voting guide has been discontinued.

[jalbright]

Alphabetical ratings

Name	pos	rating
Aaron	of	852.9
Alexander	p	738.0
Allen	1b	260.0
Alomar	2b	196.2
Anson	1b	540.5
Aparicio	ss	88.0
Appling	ss	284.8
Ashburn	of	130.1
Baker	3b	342.0
Bando	3b	129.6
Banks	ss	232.1
Beckwith	3b	157.0
CP Bell	of	191.0
Bench	c	286.2
Bennett	c	44.5
Berra	c	334.8
Bessho	p	350.0
Blyleven	p	305.4
Boggs	3b	380.5
Boudreau	ss	142.1
K. Boyer	3b	161.4
Brett	3b	395.0
Brock	of	138.0
Brouthers	1b	426.3
 3 Brown	p	253.8
R. Brown	p	243.0
Bunning	p	192.4
Burkett	of	250.1
Campanellla	c	267.0
Carew	2b	306.0
Carey	of	134.0
Carlton	p	446.0
G. Carter	c	216.2
Cepeda	1b	130.5
Charleston	of	760.0
w. Clark	1b	111.9
Clarke	of	191.5
Clarkson	p	246.9
Clemente	of	195.2
Cobb	of	1067.1
Cochrane	c	204.8
E. Collins	2b	754.4
J. Collins	3b	148.5
Connor	1b	368.5
Wilbur Cooper	p	131.6
Coveleski	p	165.2
Crawford	of	474.8
Cronin	ss	247.0
Dahlen	ss	248.5
Dandridge	3b	345.0
G. Davis	ss	244.8
Dawson	of	123.7
Day	p	105.0
Dean	p	60.8
Delahanty	of	343.0
Dickey	c	209.0
Dihigo	2b	320.0
J. DiMaggio	of	436.0
Doby	of	107.5
Doerr	2b	192.0
Doyle	2b	188.0
Drysdale	p	180.0
Duffy	of	121.6
Eckersley	p	151.2
Enatsu	p	70.0
Da. Evans	3b	130.9
Ewing	c	165.9
Faber	p	161.2
Feller	p	346.2
Ferrrell	p	134.1
Fingers	p	323.0
Fisk	c	207.9
Flick	of	127.5
Ford	p	229.4
W. Foster	p	177.0
Fox	2b	205.8
Foxx	1b	478.4
Freehan	c	62.8
Frisch	2b	300.3
Galvin	p	176.3
Gehrig	1b	621.1
Gehringer	2b	434.3
B. Gibson	p	307.4
J. Gibson	c	558.0
Glasscock	ss	109.2
Gordon	2b	157.9
Gore	of	71.9
Goslin	of	216.1
Gossage	p	139.4
F. Grant	2b	118.0
Greenberg	1b	257.5
Grich	2b	137.9
Griffith	p	123.3
Grimes	p	226.4
Groh	3b	140.8
Grove	p	713.0
Gwynn	of	253.9
Hack	3b	226.1
Hamilton	of	176.6
Harimoto	of	222.0
Hartnett	c	194.9
Heilmann	of	279.6
R Henderson	of	393.5
Herman	2b	249.6
Hill	of	130.0
Hines	of	186.9
Hornsby	2b	848.1
Hubbell	p	347.6
Hunter	p	40.0
Inao	p	260.0
Irvin	of	240.0
J. Jackson	of	146.9
R Jackson	of	310.0
Jenkins	p	281.6
HR Johnson	ss	118.0
W. Johnson	p	977.4
Kaline	of	312.7
Kaneda	p	461.0
Keefe	p	232.8
Keeler	of	146.1
J. Kelley	of	43.9
K Kelly	of	313.0
Killebrew	3b	313.2
Kiner	of	80.8
Koufax	p	149.6
Koyama	p	328.0
LaJoie	2b	685.6
Larkin	ss	149.7
Leach	of 	112.1
Lemon	p	148.3
Leonard	1b	194.0
Lloyd	ss	408.0
Lyons	p	194.0
Mackey	c	131.0
magee	of	244.1
Mantle	of	681.2
Maranville	ss	68.4
Marichal	p	240.6
Mathews	3b	468.1
Mathewson	p	682.2
C.Mays	p	159.3
W. Mays	of	839.1
McCovey	1b	230.3
McGwire	1b	124.0
McPhee	2b	120.0
Medwick	of	241.9
Minoso	of	180.0
Mize	1b	344.0
Molitor	3b	292.0
D. Moore	ss	165.0
Morgan	2b	532.7
Murphy	of	109.2
Murray	1b	272.2
Musial	of	897.9
Nagashima	3b	245.0
Nettles	3b	109.0
Newhouser	p	251.0
Nichols	p	609.2
Niekro	p	329.6
Nomura	c	248.0
Ochiai	1b	194.0
Oh	1b	472.0
Oms	of	153.0
O'Rourke	of	412.9
Ott	of	576.6
Paige	p	690.0
Palmer	p	255.4
Parker	of	140.2
Pennock	p	83.8
Perez	1b	152.3
G. Perry	p	365.4
Pesky	ss	112.9
Pierce	p	129.4
Plank	p	374.4
Puckett	of	42.7
Quisenberry	p	121.4
Radbourn	p	123.3
Raines	of	185.2
Redding	p	198.0
Reese	ss	256.6
S Rice	of	81.7
Richardson	2b	102.3
Ripken	ss	362.1
Rixey	p	163.2
Roberts	p	374.0
B. Robinson	3b	247.0
F. Robinson	of	570.9
J. Robinson	2b	322.0
Rogan	p	332.0
Rose	of	571.6
Ruffing	p	278.5
Rusie	p	297.0
Ruth	of	1172.1
Ryan	p	347.4
Sandberg	2b	299.6
Santo	3b	284.0
Santop	c	204.0
Schmidt	3b	594.8
Seaver	p	493.8
Sewell	ss	108.5
A. Simmons	of	283.0
T Simmons	c	173.2
Sisler	1b	141.5
Slaughter	of	197.0
H. Smith	p	131.0
O. Smith	ss	118.0
Snider	of	243.0
Spahn	p	651.8
Speaker	of	778.9
Starffin	p	378.0
Stargell	of	153.8
Stearnes	of	565.0
Stephens	ss	183.5
Stovey	of	183.9
Sutter	p	27.0
Suttles	1b	221.0
Sutton	p	246.6
Terry	1b	71.0
Torriente	of	300.0
Trammell	ss	123.9
Traynor	3b	149.0
van Haltren	of	125.0
Vance	p	199.6
Vaughan	ss	368.6
Waddell	p	182.8
Wagner	ss	1055.8
Wallace	ss	135.9
Walsh	p	272.6
Walters	p	143.1
P Waner	of	320.9
Ward	ss/p	294.1
Wells	ss	251.0
Wheat	of	236.0
Whitaker	2b	119.7
D. White	3b	246.9
Wilhelm	p	260.8
B. Williams	of	236.4
J Williams	p	505.0
T Williams	of	978.0
Willis	p	198.4
J. Wilson	3b	247.0
Winfield	of	200.5
G. Wright	ss	161.5
E. Wynn	p	295.8
Yaz	of	441.3
Young	p	1015.6
Yount	ss	288.1

[jalbright]

Here's my ratings by value Please note I will rate all players over 100 points or elected by the BBWAA:

pos	Name	rating
Ruth	of	1172.1
Cobb	of	1067.1
Wagner	ss	1055.8
Young	p	1015.6
T Williams	of	978.0
W. Johnson	p	977.4
Musial	of	897.9
Aaron	of	852.9
Hornsby	2b	848.1
Mays	of	839.1
Speaker	of	778.9
Charleston	of	760.0
E. Collins	2b	754.4
Alexander	p	738.0
Grove	p	713.0
Paige	p	690.0
LaJoie	2b	685.6
Mathewson	p	682.2
Mantle	of	681.2
Spahn	p	651.8
Gehrig	1b	621.1
Nichols	p	609.2
Schmidt	3b	594.8
Ott	of	576.6
Rose	of	571.6
F. Robinson	of	570.9
Stearnes	of	565.0
J. Gibson	c	558.0
Anson	1b	540.5
Morgan	2b	532.7
J Williams	p	505.0
Seaver	p	493.8
Foxx	1b	478.4
Crawford	of	474.8
Oh	1b	472.0
Mathews	3b	468.1
Kaneda	p	461.0
Carlton	p	446.0
Yaz	of	441.3
J. DiMaggio	of	436.0
Gehringer	2b	434.3
Brouthers	1b	426.3
O'Rourke	of	412.9
Lloyd	ss	408.0
Brett	3b	395.0
R Henderson	of	393.5
Boggs	3b	380.5
Starffin	p	378.0
Plank	p	374.4
Roberts	p	374.0
Vaughan	ss	368.6
Connor	1b	368.5
G. Perry	p	365.4
Ripken	ss	362.1
Bessho	p	350.0
Hubbell	p	347.6
Ryan	p	347.4
Feller	p	346.2
Dandridge	3b	345.0
Mize	1b	344.0
Delahanty	of	343.0
Baker	3b	342.0
Berra	c	334.8
Rogan	p	332.0
Niekro	p	329.6
Koyama	p	328.0
Fingers	p	323.0
J. Robinson	2b	322.0
P Waner	of	320.9
Dihigo	2b	320.0
Killebrew	3b	313.2
K Kelly	of	313.0
Kaline	of	312.7
R Jackson	of	310.0
Gibson	p	307.4
Carew	2b	306.0
Blyleven	p	305.4
Frisch	2b	300.3
Torriente	of	300.0
Sandberg	2b	299.6
Rusie	p	297.0
E. Wynn	p	295.8
Ward	ss/p	294.1
Molitor	3b	292.0
Yount	ss	288.1
Bench	c	286.2
Appling	ss	284.8
Santo	3b	284.0
A. Simmons	of	283.0
Jenkins	p	281.6
Heilmann	of	279.6
Ruffing	p	278.5
Walsh	p	272.6
Murray	1b	272.2
Campanellla	c	267.0
Wilhelm	p	260.8
Allen	1b	260.0
Inao	p	260.0
Greenberg	1b	257.5
Reese	ss	256.6
Palmer	p	255.4
Gwynn	of	253.9
 3 Brown	p	253.8
Newhouser	p	251.0
Wells	ss	251.0
Burkett	of	250.1
Herman	2b	249.6
Dahlen	ss	248.5
Nomura	c	248.0
B. Robinson	3b	247.0
J. Wilson	3b	247.0
Cronin	ss	247.0
Clarkson	p	246.9
D. White	3b	246.9
Sutton	p	246.6
Nagashima	3b	245.0
G. Davis	ss	244.8
magee	of	244.1
Snider	of	243.0
R. Brown	p	243.0
Medwick	of	241.9
Marichal	p	240.6
Irvin	of	240.0
B. Williams	of	236.4
Wheat	of	236.0
Keefe	p	232.8
Banks	ss	232.1
McCovey	1b	230.3
Ford	p	229.4
Grimes	p	226.4
Hack	3b	226.1
Harimoto	of	222.0
Suttles	1b	221.0
G. Carter	c	216.2
Goslin	of	216.1
Dickey	c	209.0
Fisk	c	207.9
Fox	2b	205.8
Cochrane	c	204.8
Santop	c	204.0
Winfield	of	200.5
Vance	p	199.6
Willis	p	198.4
Redding	p	198.0
Slaughter	of	197.0
Alomar	2b	196.2
Clemente	of	195.2
Hartnett	c	194.9
Ochiai	1b	194.0
Leonard	1b	194.0
Lyons	p	194.0
Bunning	p	192.4
Doerr	2b	192.0
Clarke	of	191.5
CP Bell	of	191.0
Doyle	2b	188.0
Hines	of	186.9
Raines	of	185.2
Stovey	of	183.9
Stephens	ss	183.5
Waddell	p	182.8
Drysdale	p	180.0
Minoso	of	180.0
W. Foster	p	177.0
Hamilton	of	176.6
Galvin	p	176.3
T Simmons	c	173.2
Ewing	c	165.9
Coveleski	p	165.2
D. Moore	ss	165.0
Rixey	p	163.2
G. Wright	ss	161.5
K. Boyer	3b	161.4
Faber	p	161.2
C Mays	p	159.3
Gordon	2b	157.9
Beckwith	3b	157.0
Stargell	of	153.8
Oms	of	153.0
Perez	1b	152.3
Eckersley	p	151.2
Larkin	ss	149.7
Koufax	p	149.6
Traynor	3b	149.0
J. Collins	3b	148.5
Lemon	p	148.3
J. Jackson	of	146.9
Keeler	of	146.1
Walters	p	143.1
Boudreau	ss	142.1
Sisler	1b	141.5
Groh	3b	140.8
Parker	of	140.2
Gossage	p	139.4
Brock	of	138.0
Grich	2b	137.9
Wallace	ss	135.9
Ferrell	p	134.1
Carey	of	134.0
Wilbur Cooper	p	131.6
Mackey	c	131.0
H. Smith	p	131.0
Da. Evans	3b	130.9
Cepeda	1b	130.5
Ashburn	of	130.1
Hill	of	130.0
Bando	3b	129.6
Pierce	p	129.4
Flick	of	127.5
van Haltren	of	125.0
McGwire	1b	124.0
Trammell	ss	123.9
Dawson	of	123.7
Griffith	p	123.3
Radbourn	p	123.3
Duffy	of	121.6
Quisenberry	p	121.4
McPhee	2b	120.0
Whitaker	2b	119.7
F. Grant	2b	118.0
HR Johnson	ss	118.0
O. Smith	ss	118.0
Pesky	ss	112.9
Leach	of 	112.1
w. Clark	1b	111.9
Murphy	of	109.2
Glasscock	ss	109.2
Nettles	3b	109.0
Sewell	ss	108.5
Doby	of	107.5
Day	p	105.0
Richardson	2b	102.3
Aparicio	ss	88.0
Pennock	p	83.8
S Rice	of	81.7
Kiner	of	80.8
Gore	of	71.9
Terry	1b	71.0
Enatsu	p	70.0
Maranville	ss	68.4
Freehan	c	62.8
Dean	p	60.8
Bennett	c	44.5
J. Kelley	of	43.9
Puckett	of	42.7
Hunter	p	40.0
Sutter	p	27.0

[jalbright]

Here are my ratings by position

pos	Name	rating
1b	Gehrig	621.1
1b	Anson	540.5
1b	Foxx	478.4
1b	Oh	472.0
1b	Brouthers	426.3
1b	Connor	368.5
1b	Mize	344.0
1b	Murray	272.2
1b	Allen	260.0
1b	Greenberg	257.5
1b	McCovey	230.3
1b	Suttles	221.0
1b	Ochiai	194.0
1b	Leonard	194.0
1b	Perez	152.3
1b	Sisler	141.5
1b	Cepeda	130.5
1b	McGwire	124.0
1b	w. Clark	111.9
1b	Terry	71.0

2b	Hornsby	848.1
2b	E. Collins	754.4
2b	LaJoie	685.6
2b	Morgan	532.7
2b	Gehringer	434.3
2b	J. Robinson	322.0
2b	Dihigo	320.0
2b	Carew	306.0
2b	Frisch	300.3
2b	Sandberg	299.6
2b	Herman	249.6
2b	Fox	205.8
2b	Alomar	196.2
2b	Doerr	192.0
2b	Doyle	188.0
2b	Gordon	157.9
2b	Grich	137.9
2b	McPhee	120.0
2b	Whitaker	119.7
2b	F. Grant	118.0
2b	Richardson	102.3

3b	Schmidt	594.8
3b	Mathews	468.1
3b	Brett	395.0
3b	Boggs	380.5
3b	Dandridge	345.0
3b	Baker	342.0
3b	Killebrew	313.2
3b	Molitor	292.0
3b	Santo	284.0
3b	B. Robinson	247.0
3b	J. Wilson	247.0
3b	D. White	246.9
3b	Nagashima	245.0
3b	Hack	226.1
3b	K. Boyer	161.4
3b	Beckwith	157.0
3b	Traynor	149.0
3b	J. Collins	148.5
3b	Groh	140.8
3b	Da. Evans	130.9
3b	Bando	129.6
3b	Nettles	109.0

c	J. Gibson	558.0
c	Berra	334.8
c	Bench	286.2
c	Campanellla	267.0
c	Nomura	248.0
c	G. Carter	216.2
c	Dickey	209.0
c	Fisk	207.9
c	Santop	204.0
c	Cochrane	204.8
c	Hartnett	194.9
c	T Simmons	173.2
c	Ewing	165.9
c	Mackey	131.0
c	Freehan	62.8
c	Bennett	44.5

of	Ruth	1172.1
of	Cobb	1067.1
of	T Williams	978.0
of	Musial	897.9
of	Aaron	852.9
of	Mays	839.1
of	Speaker	778.9
of	Charleston	760.0
of	Mantle	681.2
of	Ott	576.6
of	Rose	571.6
of	F. Robinson	570.9
of	Stearnes	565.0
of	Crawford	474.8
of	Yaz	441.3
of	J. DiMaggio	436.0
of	O'Rourke	412.9
of	R Henderson	393.5
of	Delahanty	343.0
of	P Waner	320.9
of	K Kelly	313.0
of	Kaline	312.7
of	R Jackson	310.0
of	Torriente	300.0
of	A. Simmons	283.0
of	Heilmann	279.6
of	Gwynn	253.9
of	Burkett	250.1
of	magee	244.1
of	Snider	243.0
of	Medwick	241.9
of	Irvin	240.0
of	B. Williams	236.4
of	Wheat	236.0
of	Harimoto	222.0
of	Goslin	216.1
of	Winfield	200.5
of	Slaughter	197.0
of	Clemente	195.2
of	Clarke	191.5
of	CP Bell	191.0
of	Hines	186.9
of	Raines	185.2
of	Stovey	183.9
of	Minoso	180.0
of	Hamilton	176.6
of	Stargell	153.8
of	Oms	153.0
of	J. Jackson	146.9
of	Keeler	146.1
of	Parker	140.2
of	Brock	138.0
of	Carey	134.0
of	Ashburn	130.1
of	Hill	130.0
of	Flick	127.5
of	van Haltren	125.0
of	Dawson	123.7
of	Duffy	121.6
of 	Leach	112.1
of	Murphy	109.2
of	Doby	107.5
of	S Rice	81.7
of	Kiner	80.8
of	Gore	71.9
of	J. Kelley	43.9
of	Puckett	42.7

p	Young	1015.6
p	W. Johnson	977.4
p	Alexander	738.0
p	Grove	713.0
p	Paige	690.0
p	Mathewson	682.2
p	Spahn	651.8
p	Nichols	609.2
p	J Williams	505.0
p	Seaver	493.8
p	Kaneda	461.0
p	Carlton	446.0
p	Starffin	378.0
p	Plank	374.4
p	Roberts	374.0
p	G. Perry	365.4
p	Bessho	350.0
p	Hubbell	347.6
p	Ryan	347.4
p	Feller	346.2
p	Rogan	332.0
p	Niekro	329.6
p	Koyama	328.0
p	Fingers	323.0
p	Gibson	307.4
p	Blyleven	305.4
p	Rusie	297.0
p	E. Wynn	295.8
p	Jenkins	281.6
p	Ruffing	278.5
p	Walsh	272.6
p	Wilhelm	260.8
p	Inao	260.0
p	Palmer	255.4
p	 3 Brown	253.8
p	Newhouser	251.0
p	Clarkson	246.9
p	Sutton	246.6
p	R. Brown	243.0
p	Marichal	240.6
p	Keefe	232.8
p	Ford	229.4
p	Grimes	226.4
p	Vance	199.6
p	Willis	198.4
p	Redding	198.0
p	Lyons	194.0
p	Bunning	192.4
p	Waddell	182.8
p	Drysdale	180.0
p	W. Foster	177.0
p	Galvin	176.3
p	Coveleski	165.2
p	Rixey	163.2
p	Faber	161.2
p	C Mays	159.3
p	Eckersley	151.2
p	Koufax	149.6
p	Lemon	148.3
p	Walters	143.1
p	Gossage	139.4
p	Ferrell	134.1
p	Wilbur Cooper	131.6
p	H. Smith	131.0
p	Pierce	129.4
p	Griffith	123.3
p	Radbourn	123.3
p	Quisenberry	121.4
p	Day	105.0
p	Pennock	83.8
p	Enatsu	70.0
p	Dean	60.8
p	Hunter	40.0
p	Sutter	27.0

ss	Wagner	1055.8
ss	Lloyd	408.0
ss	Vaughan	368.6
ss	Ripken	362.1
ss	Yount	288.1
ss	Appling	284.8
ss	Reese	256.6
ss	Wells	251.0
ss	Dahlen	248.5
ss	Cronin	247.0
ss	G. Davis	244.8
ss	Banks	232.1
ss	Stephens	183.5
ss	D. Moore	165.0
ss	G. Wright	161.5
ss	Larkin	149.7
ss	Boudreau	142.1
ss	Wallace	135.9
ss	Trammell	123.9
ss	HR Johnson	118.0
ss	O. Smith	118.0
ss	Pesky	112.9
ss	Glasscock	109.2
ss	Sewell	108.5
ss	Aparicio	88.0
ss	Maranville	68.4

ss/p	Ward	294.1

[jalbright]

Negro Leagues Executives and Managers:

Executives

Ed Bolden--ELECTED Owned two franchises (not at the same time) in the Philadelphia area, Hilldale and later, the Philadelphia Stars in addition to being the founder and commissioner of the Eastern Colored League, all while holding down a day job as a postal employee. For more about him, see post #64 in this thread.


Managers

Many of the most successful Negro League managers were also star players who really deserve to get in on that basis. There are three who are not in yet who I don't think qualify as players:

C. I. Taylor--ELECTED built the Indianapolis ABCs into a powerhouse franchise in the teens. Riley says he is one of the two "geniuses" to manage in the Negro Leagues, the other being Rube Foster. For more about him, see post #62 in this thread.

Vic Harris Won seven pennants with the Homestead Grays, 5 of them consecutively. He had a lot of talent, but with that talent comes egos, and he managed to keep them on top. Also a talented player. Probably a good analogy is Joe Torre. For more about him, see post #61 in this thread.

Frank Warfield Won four pennants for three different teams: 2 with Hilldale, 1 with the Baltimore Black Sox, and 1 with Santa Clara in the Cuban league. Also a talented player. For more about him, see post #63 in this thread.

Multi-faceted

Buck O'Neill--ELECTED see post #244 in this thread.

Sol White see post #244 in this thread.

Andy Cooper see post #244 in this thread.

[jalbright]

My contributors in the Media category are rather few, as I want somebody with a significant impact on a national level. Also, if one's contribution is limited to a single book, it has to be as earthshaking as the first Macmillan encyclopedia (sorry, Jim Bouton!).

David Neft Headed up the enormous and enormously important project of creating the first modern baseball encyclopedia, the first Macmillan Encyclopedia

Harry Caray Though his status as a Chicago baseball mainstay is important, lots of announcers have that qualification and I'm not voting for them. What sets Harry apart in my mind is his role in popularizing the use of "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" for the seventh inning stretch. Put the two together, and I think he qualifies.

Al Munro Elias For his role as a popularizer of baseball statistics

Ty Tyson He is the first to regularly broadcast team games over radio

Felo Ramirez became Canel's partner in 1950 just five years after his on-air debut in Cuba, broadcast 31 World Series and 40 Caribbean Series to the Spanish-speaking world

Vin Scully--ELECTED Not only has he loyally served the Dodgers for many years, he also has been prominent nationally. AG2004 points out the following:

Originally Posted by AG2004

Scully holds the record for most World Series by an English-language broadcaster, including 23 national broadcasts.

Television
NBC - 1953, 1955, 1956, 1959, 1963, 1965, 1966, 1974, 1984, 1986, 1988

Radio
NBC - 1966
CBS - 1979-82, 1990-93, 1995-97

Also, the American Sportscasters Association voted him the ASA Sportscaster of the Century Award in 2000.

Between the number of postseason broadcasts and the high regard he has among his peers, I think Scully is worthy of induction.

[jalbright]

Pioneers

Dr. Jobe His invention of the Tommy John surgery has saved countless pitching careers, including, of course, Tommy John's.

Lefty O'Doul--ELECTED A pretty good player who adds the fact he was a key player in getting professional baseball established in Japan.

Dickey Pearce He was at least a good player in the pre 1871 era, and maybe even great. Add to that he invented bunting and made shortstop a key defensive position, I think he deserves a spot.

Dan Okrent Developer of Rotisserie Baseball and also played a large role iin bringing Bill James to the attention of a national audience.

Bob Davids the driving force behind the founding of SABR

Charles W. Leavitt, Jr. The architect fot the first concrete and steel ballpark, Forbes Field. After seeing it, every team wanted one for itself.

Joe Spear Headed the Camden Yards project. Combined the old style park charm with modern amenities. Every team wanted a park like it, spawning the recent park building surge.

Ted Giannoulas, aka the San Diego Chicken There were baseball clowns before him, but he's the one who popularized the mascot/clown role so that everybody has one.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

My list of qualified Japanese managers. Success points are a Bill James creation. The numbers given are not discounted in any way, and are from a system I modeled on James' system, but isn't identical to it.

Kazuto Tsuruoka--ELECTED Manager's Success Points: 70
He is Japan's winningest manager, with 1807 regular season victories to his credit as well as a .609 winning percentage. His teams were over .500 in 21 of the 23 seasons he managed, and he won 11 pennants. In those 11 pennants was a stretch of 4 pennants in five years and another stretch of 4 pennants in six years.

Tetsuharu Kawakami --ELECTED Manager's Success Points: 60
He managed fourteen seasons for the Yomiuri Giants and was over .500 each season. He won 11 pennants and won the Japan Series every time. Nine of those pennants were consecutive, the fabled "V-9" Giant club.

Shigeru Mizuhara Manager's Success Points: 62
He won eight pennants in nine years from 1951 to 1959 for the Yomiuri Giants. He also won four Japan Series in the period 1951 to 1955 and won a pennant for the Flyers.

Sadayoshi Fujimoto Manager's Success Points: 49
He established the Yomiuri club as a powerhouse, winning pennants in every season from the 1938 Fall season through 1943.

Osamu Mihara Manager's Success Points: 44
He won pennants as a manager for three different franchises, most notably the Lion dynasty he presided over. He won 4 Japan Series in a stretch of five years.

Masaaki Mori Manager's Success Points: 42
He won 7 pennants in 8 years, and six Japan Series in seven years within that stretch.

Yukio Nishimoto Manager's Success Points: 43
He won pennants for three franchises and had a stretch of five pennants in six years. Unfortunately, though he led eight teams to the Japan Series, he never grabbed the brass ring, five of the losses coming to Kawakami's "V-9" Giants.

Toshiharu Ueda Manager's Success Points: 39
He won four pennants in a row, capturing the Japan Series title in a stretch of three consecutive years within that period.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

The major league managers I think I'd put in, together with their Manager's success points (as calculated by Bill James this time) and any comments I have:

Frank Chance--ELECTED 28 points The manager of the Cub powerhouse built by Selee matured under his leadership. An excellent, though not quite great first baseman, IMO.

Billy Martin: 29 points. His behavior was poor, and he wore out his welcome quickly no matter where he went. But if you wanted to win right now, there was nobody better while he was around managing.

Hughie Jennings--ELECTED 24 points. An excellent shortstop, albeit in a short career. I can't go for him just as a player, but when you combine it with his success as a manager, I can.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Major/Minor league executives

George Weiss--ELECTED see this from Cooperstown's website: http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...iss_George.htm

Paul Krichell The man who scouted many of the best players to stock Weiss' Yankee farm system.

Clark Griffith--ELECTED: He's got a better pitching record than I thought (nearly or actually HOF caliber in its own right), and then when you add in the fact he was a reasonably successful manager (career record over .500), he owned a World Champion club and another pennant winner and owned that franchise for a long time, I have to say the combination makes him deserving of the honor.

OK, that's my list of contributors until somebody convinces me to make some changes to it.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

If you think I've missed or overlooked someone in my queues, you are free to ask--I'm hardly blessed with great secretarial skills. I will say that I have a number based approach for ranking major league players I think is rather satisfactory, and absent compelling circumstances, I'm not too inclined to override it.

The elements of the score for I use for ranking 20th century major leaguers are:
1) career win shares
2) three best season's win shares
3) Best 5 consecutive season stretch total in win shares (if skipping wartime years gives a better result in this category for batters, that is allowed)
4) Black Ink points from baseball-reference.com
5) Gray ink Points from baseball-reference.com
6) HOF standards from baseball-reference.com
7) an estimate of win shares lost due to the color line or military service

For pitchers at the 60 foot 6 inch distance use TPI for peak year measures (linear weights instead of win shares--for more details see post #278)

I used a different approach for 19th century guys to try to account for the differences in the game (shorter schedules, pitching distance, quality of competition, etc) in the 20th century and beyond. That system will be discussed below:

My approach for 19th century position players is to use the old standard HOF standards, black ink and gray ink (another problem for pre 1870 players) adding those totals. Then we add in the MLB WS/162 * 0.9 * whole MLB seasons. If the player also played in the NA 1871-1875, we take his TPR/162 games from Total Baseball (James didn't do win shares for before 1875), mulitply it by 3 and add 10 to get an estimate of win shares. From there we multiply that result by 0.9 * NA full seasons. That is then added to the total. Finally, if a player played before 1870, we get a score by taking his runs/out for that period and subtracting 0.67. This number is multiplied by 9. That result then added to 10 and then that result is multiplied by the number of whole pre 1870 seasons. That pre 1870 number is added to the existing total. Finally, we look at peak performance. A 19th century position player gets the greater of his best five consecutive years plus his best three individual years or seven times his MLB WS/162 (for a guy like Start, we might use a single season estimate of WS/162).

For pre 60 foot 6 inch pitching distance pitchers, the system was as follows:
Use linear weights TPR for career, best 3 and best 5 consecutive. Add those three TPR results together and multiply by three, then add career IP before 1893 divided by 20. The remaining categories remain the same.

I did override the cutoffs for three of the guys elected by the BBWAA who missed the cutoffs and weren't yet in the BBF HOF (Puckett, Terry and Aparicio) plus Sam Rice with his 2990+ hits. Also, I did give some flexibility for some close 19th century candidates, especially those in at least two of the following "Halls": Cooperstown, BBF Timeline, and Baseball Think Factory's Hall of Merit.

I've done some revamping of how I address catchers. See post #135 for details. For relief aces, I've decided to go a different route. See post #169 for details.

If you want to see the spreadsheets I used to do all this, PM me with an email address where you can receive attachments. It's in Excel format.

I used to make in/out calls for the Hall based on this, but I've gone to a more qualitative approach using these factors for those decisions.

[jalbright]

I'm going to post the top 25 list of retired major leaguers as determined by my rating system and my list of the top three per position (9 OF and 12 P) so you can judge how well you like how it works. My own opinion is that while I don't agree with it completely, I still like it better than any other system I've ever seen. I don't like to work with players whose careers are still in progress, because doing so requires continual updating.

A few notes: My adjustments for military service apply only to hitters on the theory pitching arms were preserved by not playing at the highest level--see The Diamond Appraised by Craig Wright and Tom House for support of this approach. Also, the adjustments for military service and Negro leagues are intended to be conservative, and, IMO still leave such players undervalued. I'm leaving out Japanese players and Negro Leaguers who played more than half their careers outside MLB, as rating them necessarily involves making subjective decisions. I don't want your evaluation of the rating system affected by your opinion of those subjective decisions. Nineteenth century guys have to be viewed carefully due to short seasons versus lesser competition. A key component for rating them is that they exceed the level of black Ink plus gray ink for average HOFers. Relief pitchers don't do well with this approach when compared to other pitchers, and so must be treated separately. Also, I cut the lists off (with the above noted exceptions for 19th century guys, relievers, Negro Leaguers and Japanese players) at 750 for OF-1B-DH's, 675 for starting pitchers, 400 for relievers, and 600 for everyone else.

Now that all that explanatory stuff is out of the way, here's the system's top three per position list (retired players only):

c Berra, Bench, Ewing
1b Gehrig, Foxx, Anson
2b Hornsby, E. Collins, LaJoie
3b Schmidt, Mathews, Brett
ss Wagner, Vaughan, Ripken
of Ruth, Cobb, T. Williams, Musial, Aaron, Mays, Speaker, Mantle, F. Robinson
p W. Johnson, C. Young, Alexander, Nichols, Mathewson, Grove, Spahn, Seaver, Keefe, Carlton, Plank, Roberts

Monte Ward could go in as the second shortstop, but I hesitated to do that given how his career is divided. Yes, I count Ruth's pitching, but he clearly was mostly an outfielder. Deciding whether Ward is a shortstop or a pitcher is a much tougher call.

The top 25 per the system is as follows (retired players only):
Ruth
Cobb
T Williams
Wagner
W Johnson
Musial
C. Young
Aaron
Mays
Speaker
Hornsby
Mantle
Alexander
Gehrig
E Collins
Nichols
Mathewson
F Robinson
Ott
Grove
LaJoie
Rose
Spahn
Crawford
Foxx

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

There are some players in Cooperstown I wouldn't have inducted, but I would concede are reasonably close calls. I intend to address the clearest mistakes among position player inductees here.

The list below begins with the rating system I use which is detailed above. I adopted cutoff levels for positions as well. The further a player is below those cutoffs, the more clear the mistake is IMO. One person on this list who belongs in Cooperstown as a manager is Frank Chance. I'm not wholly convinced that Tommy McCarthy belongs in as a pioneer, but at least there is an argument to be made for him. Beyond that, though, I find little to recommend the baker's dozen captured by this approach:

1. Tommy McCarthy
2 (T) George Kelly
2 (T) Chick Hafey
4. Ray Schalk
5. Lloyd Waner
6. (T) Bill Mazeroski
6. (T) Jesse Haines
8. Earle Combs
9. Fred Lindstrom
10. Rick Ferrell
11 (T) Ross Youngs
11 (T) Frank Chance
13. Travis Jackson


I should point out that all of these guys were selected by various forms of a "Veterans Committee". All of them were more than 100 points below the cutoffs I established. By comparison, only one BBWAA-elected candidate was more than 50 points below a cutoff (only eight BBWAA choices: Terry, Kiner, Aparicio, Hunter, Maranville, Dean, Pennock and Puckett were below the cutoffs). Kirby Puckett was that one, at 59 points below the cutoff. The BBWAA has done rather well.


Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Other pages in this thread (I use the standard 25 per page):
page 2 (posts 26-50):
page 3 (posts 51-75):
page 4 (posts 76-100):
page 5 (posts 101-125):
page 6 (posts 126-150):
page 7 (posts 151-175):
page 8 (posts 176-200):
page 9 (posts 201-225):
page 10 (posts 226-250):
page 11 (posts 251-275):
page 12 (posts 276-300):
page 13 (posts 301-325):
page 14 (posts 326-350)
page 15 (posts 351-375)
page 16 (posts 376-400)
page 17 (posts 401-425)

[jalbright]

Here's my ratings by value for the guys not yet in the BBF HOF:

Player	pos	score
Bessho	p	350.0
Koyama	p	328.0
Willis	p	198.4
Ochiai	1b	194.0
Stephens	ss	183.5
Lundy	ss	145.3
Walters	p	143.1
Wilbur Cooper	p	131.6
Da. Evans	3b	130.9
Bando	3b	129.6
Pesky	ss	112.9
Leach	of	112.1
Day	p	105.0
Richardson	2b	102.3
Trouppe	c	101.0
S. Rice	of	81.7
Enatsu	p	70.0
Maranville	ss	68.4

[jalbright]

This post will cover the top Japanese players and managers:

Sadaharu Oh: ELECTED BBF HOF JULY 2005
The following has links to everything I've written about him for baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...ml#Sadaharu_Oh

Katsuya Nomura ELECTED BBF HOF JANUARY 2006
Links to all my writings on him in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...Katsuya_Nomura

Shigeo Nagashima ELECTED BBF HOF APRIL 2006
Links to all my writings on him in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...igeo_Nagashima

Isao Harimoto ELECTED BBF HOF NOVEMBER 2006
Links to all my writings on him in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...#Isao_Harimoto

Koji Yamamoto
Links to all my writings on him in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...#Koji_Yamamoto

Masaichi Kaneda ELECTED BBF HOF
Links to all my writings on him in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...asaichi_Kaneda

Victor Starffin--ELECTED
Links to all my writings on him in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...ictor_Starffin

Kazuhisa Inao--ELECTED
Links to all my writings on him in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...#Kazuhisa_Inao

Akira Bessho
Links to all my writings on him in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...l#Akira_Bessho

Tetsuharu Kawakami (as a manager) ELECTED BBF HOF
Links to my writings on his managerial career in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...uharu_Kawakami

Kazuto Tsuruoka--ELECTED (as a manager)
Links to my writings on his managerial career in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...azuto_Tsuruoka

Shigeru Mizuhara
Links to my writings on his managerial career in baseballguru.com:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/In...igeru_Mizuhara

For Japanese stats, go to http://www.japanbaseballdaily.com/DataWarehouse.html
Kaneda, Inao, Starffin and Bessho are pitchers, while the rest of the players are batters. You'll have to pick the right alphabetical grouping and scroll to the data.
For the managers, go to the very bottom of the page and click on the Individual Managers ("a to l" or "m to z", as appropriate) and scroll to their records.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Links to targeted writngs on quality of top Japanese players plus thumbnail sketches of same:

Sadaharu Oh ELECTED BBF HOF JULY 2005
For a look at part 1 of my review of his case for Cooperstown, see:http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...lbright12.html

For a look at my major league equivalent for him (in part 2 of my review of his case for Cooperstown), go to: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...lbright13.html

For a season by season projection of his major league equivalents, see: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...lbright14.html

For a comparison of Oh to his contemporaries in the majors and to first ballot HOFers, see: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...lbright16.html

For a comparison of Oh to candidates who made the top ten in BBWAA voting but not Cooperstown, see: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...lbright17.html

For a comparison of Oh's best years to major league players in the same years, see: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...ight32.html#Oh

He's the Japanese career leader in homers, RBI, walks, runs scored and slugging, and would be in on-base percentage if it were an official statistic. He won two consecutive Triple Crowns, was MVP 9 times, the best first baseman in the Central League (won a Best Nine Award) 18 times, and won 9 Golden Gloves, the first nine awarded, in the last nine years of his career. He led his league in runs scored 12 times, in homers 15 times, in total bases 12 times, in RBI 13 times, in walks 18 times, in slugging percentage 14 times, and average 5 times.

Katsuya Nomura ELECTED BBF HOF
For a look at my major league equivalent for him, go to:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...Katsuya_Nomura

For a comparison of Nomura to major league catchers of the 1960's, see: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...32.html#Nomura

He's the career leader in at bats, and is second in both career hits and homers. He won a Triple Crown, 4 MVPs, 19 Best Nines at catcher, and a single Gold Glove at catcher, though the award didn't come about until he had caught 18 or so seasons. He led his league in average once, runs scored 3 times, homers 9 times, total bases 5 times, RBI 7 times, and walks and slugging percentage twice each.

Shigeo Nagashima ELECTED BBF HOF
My major league equivalent for the man generally described as the most popular player ever in Japan is at:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...igeo_Nagashima

For a look at him versus other top third basemen, see: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...igeo_Nagashima

For a look at major league equivalents of his best seasons compared to major leaguers in those years, see: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...html#Nagashima

Nagashima won 5 MVPs, 17 Best Nines at third base, and 2 of the first three Gold Gloves awarded at third in his last years. He led the league in runs scored, homers, and walks twice each, total bases and average six times each, RBI 5 times, and slugging percentage 4 times.

Isao Harimoto ELECTED BBF HOF NOVEMBER 2006
My major league equivalent for him is at:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...#Isao_Harimoto

For a comparison of his major league equivalent on a career basis, see: http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...#Isao_Harimoto

For a comparison of his major league equivalents for his best seasons, see:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an....html#Harimoto

He's the career leader in hits, and third in both career average and career runs scored. He's also sixth in career homers. He won an MVP, 16 Best Nines in the outfield, but no Gold Gloves. He led his league in walks 4 times, total bases and slugging percentage three times each, and 7 times in average.

Masaichi Kaneda--ELECTED BBF HOF NOVEMBER 2005
For my major league equivalent for him, see:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...asaichi_Kaneda

For a comparison of his major league equivalent on a career basis, see:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...asaichi_Kaneda

He pitched most of his career for bad Swallows teams, yet managed to be the Japanese career leader in wins, strikeouts and innings pitched. He won awards given to the best pitchers in Japan in four different seasons (3 Best Nines and a Sawamura), and led the league in wins and ERA three times each and strikeouts 10 times.

Victor Starffin--ELECTED
My major league equivalent for this pitching star from the early days of professional ball in Japan is at:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...ictor_Starffin

For a comparison of his major league equivalent on a career basis, see:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...ictor_Starffin

He won 2 MVPs, and won the first Best Nine for a pitcher in 1940 (a MVP year), the only year in which Best Nines were given before 1947. He's fifth in career ERA. He led his league in wins 6 seasons, but that includes both the "Spring" and "Fall" seasons of 1938 and the "Fall" of 1937. He led in win percentage in two seasons, the "Fall" of 1938 being one. His one time leading the league in ERA for a season was that "Fall" 1938 season, and he led in strikeouts twice, once in his fabulous 1938 "Fall" campaign. He's tied for the most wins in a season at 42 with Inao.

Kazuhisa Inao--ELECTED
My major league equivalent for him is at:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...#Kazuhisa_Inao

For a comparison of his major league equivalent on a career basis, see:
http://baseballguru.com/jalbright/an...#Kazuhisa_Inao
He won 2 MVPs and 5 pitching Best Nines, was second in career winning percentage and third in career ERA. He led his league in wins four times, including tying Starffin for the Japanese record at 42. He led in winning percentage twice, ERA five times, and strikeouts three times.

Jim Albright

[jalbright]

Here's my choices for the most similar major leaguer based on career records to my Japanese ballot choices and some comments:

Sadaharu Oh=Willie McCovey with 700 more walks in his career! They are contemporary players. ELECTED BBF HOF JULY 2005

Katsuya Nomura=Gary Carter's stats extended by 1300 more AB--and done mostly in the 1960's! Carter probably rates an edge against base stealers, but I'd think Nomura could otherwise hold his own against Carter defensively. The best catcher in all of baseball IMO in the period 1960-1968. His projection meets 61 of Bill James' HOF standards (50 is average).ELECTED BBF HOF JANUARY 2006

Shigeo Nagashima=Ron Santo like stats, but in a neutral park. Nagashima's defense is also at least as good. Played at roughly the same time as Santo. His projection meets 57 of Bill James' HOF Standards. ELECTED BBF HOF

Isao Harimoto=Paul Molitor's stats with 60 more career homers, but 10 less points of average, if Paul played left field his whole career--in the 1960's. His projection meets 58 of Bill James' HOF Standards. ELECTED BBF HOF NOVEMBER 2006

Masaichi Kaneda=Steve Carlton, but with more wins and ten years earlier. His projection meets 76 of Bill James' HOF Standards. ELECTED BBF HOF NOVEMBER 2005

Victor Starffin=Joe McGinnity. Starffin's projected record of 308-143 is much better than McGinnity's actual record of 246-142, but I wanted to go with a comparatively low strikeout deadball-era pitcher. His projection meets 68 of Bill James' HOF Standards. ELECTED BBF HOF

Kazuhisa Inao=Juan Marichal--and they played about the same time. His projection meets 67 of Bill James' HOF Standards. ELECTED BBF HOF

I did consider left hand/right hand issue and the era played, in adjusting from what I found to be the most similar guys to the projections, but certainly not style. Oh's batting style is much more like Mel Ott's than anybody else in the majors I can think of, for instance. I'm really addressing productivity issues in my most similar selections above.

Jim Albright