Top Ten Relievers All Time

[parlo]

I need lots of help with this. I have a hard time comparing present day relievers/closers with those from earlier eras. It seems the role of a reliever changes about every 15-20 years. The saves stat seems more and more like a fluff stat. Heres what I have:
1-Rivera
2-Wilhelm
3-Fingers
4-Gossage
5-Ekersley
6-Sutter
7-Quisinberry
8-?
9-?
10-?


I look forward to your insight.

[jjpm74]

You can add T. Hoffman, L. Smith and S. Lyle to your list, but once you get past the players you already mentioned, you get a group of about 25 guys who are all pretty much on the same playing field and none of which are HOF worthy.

I'd move Quisenberry just below Gossage on your list. Otherwise, it's pretty much spot on.

[RuthMayBond]

As far as career, I've got
Rivera
Wilhelm
Gossage
LSmith
Quisenberry
JoFranco
Tekulve
Hoffman
Sutter
Fingers
with Wagner banging hard on that door

[parlo]

Originally Posted by jjpm74

You can add T. Hoffman, L. Smith and S. Lyle to your list, but once you get past the players you already mentioned, you get a group of about 25 guys who are all pretty much on the same playing field and none of which are HOF worthy.

I'd move Quisenberry just below Gossage on your list. Otherwise, it's pretty much spot on.

Thanks!
Is Hoffman really that good???? He always seemed like a compiler to me. Why Lee Smith, but not Jeff Reardon??? I know Sparky had that CYA in 77, but I always kind of grouped him with Tug McGraw. I am not arguing with you, I am just not sure of the reasons you came to these conclusions.
I see your point about Quisenberry though.

[Blackout]

hoffman is NOT that good

alot of his saves are 1/3 innings

and he chokes

[dgarza]

1. Mariano Rivera
2. Dennis Eckersley
3. Hoyt Wilhelm
4. Trevor Hoffman
5. Lee Smith
6. Rollie Fingers
7. Billy Wagner
8. John Franco
9. Goose Gossage
10. Bruce Sutter
11. Dan Quisenberry

[parlo]

Originally Posted by RuthMayBond

As far as career, I've got
Rivera
Wilhelm
Gossage
LSmith
Quisenberry
JoFranco
Tekulve
Hoffman
Sutter
Fingers
with Wagner banging hard on that door

Thanks for your input. I am not sold on Lee Smith and Trevor Hoffman. John Franco also. Kent Tekulve is an interesting choice. I am always intrigued by choices from an earlier era.
I will have to research him more.
Is there a reason you dont include Ekersley?

[parlo]

Originally Posted by blackout805

hoffman is NOT that good

alot of his saves are 1/3 innings

and he chokes

Thats what I have always thought. He has an Armando Benitez streak in him. He just seems like a compiler to me.

[parlo]

Originally Posted by dgarza

1. Mariano Rivera
2. Dennis Eckersley
3. Hoyt Wilhelm
4. Trevor Hoffman
5. Lee Smith
6. Rollie Fingers
7. Billy Wagner
8. John Franco
9. Goose Gossage
10. Bruce Sutter
11. Dan Quisenberry

I have a hard time believing that Hoffman, Smith, Wagner, and Franco are better than Gossage, Sutter, and Quisenberry. Prove me wrong!

[jjpm74]

Originally Posted by parlo

Thanks!
Is Hoffman really that good???? He always seemed like a compiler to me. Why Lee Smith, but not Jeff Reardon??? I know Sparky had that CYA in 77, but I always kind of grouped him with Tug McGraw. I am not arguing with you, I am just not sure of the reasons you came to these conclusions.
I see your point about Quisenberry though.

I agree with you that there isn't a significant separation there. I was just throwing out 3 names there. Personally, I think the only oversight is Quisenberry to this point (I assume Rivera will get in when he's eligible). Lee Smith is another favorite of mine, but many see him as a compiler.

These guys are all on pretty equal ground, IMO:

Dan Plesac
Kent Tekulve
Mike Marshall
Rick Aguilera
Tug McGraw
Dave Righetti
Rob Nenn
Jeff Reardon
Sparky Lyle
Lindy McDaniel
Roy Face
Trevor Hoffman
John Franco
Billy Wagner
Randy Myers
Tome Henke
John Wetteland
Jesse Orosco
Doug Jones
Jeff Montgomery
Todd Worrell
Gene Garber
Ron Perranoski
Dave Smith
Mike Stanton
Todd Jones

[Bill Burgess]

Relievers Form Chart:

Name, Era-------------------------Saves-----G. Fin.-------INN ---------ERA+
Firpo Marberry, 1923-1936,--------101--------271----------2,067--------134
Hoyt Wilhelm, 1952-1972,--------- 227--------651----------2,254.3------146
Roy Face, 1953-1969, -------------193--------574----------1,375.0------109
Ron Perranoski, 1961-1973,--------179--------458----------1,174--------123
Dick Radatz, 1962-1969------------122--------297------------693.7------122
John Hiller, 1965-1980,-----------125--------363----------1,040--------134
Sparky Lyle, 1967-1982,-----------238--------634----------1,292--------127
Rollie Fingers, 1968-1985---------341--------709----------1,701.3------119
Rich "Goose" Gossage, 1972-1994---310--------681----------1,809.3------126
Kent Tekulve, 1974-1989,----------638--------184----------1,436.3------132
Gary Lavelle, 1974-1987-----------399--------136----------1,085.0------126
Dennis Eckersley, 1975-1998-------390--------577----------3,285.7------116
Bruce Sutter, 1976-1988-----------300--------512----------1,042.3------136
Dan Quisenberry, 1979-1990--------244--------553----------1,043.3------146
Jeff Reardon, 1979-1994-----------367--------695----------1,132.2------121
Dave Righetti, 1979-1995----------252--------474----------1,403.7------114
Jesse Orosco, 1979-2003,----------501--------144----------1,295.0------125
Lee Smith, 1980-1997--------------478--------802----------1,289.3------132
Tom Henke, 1982-95----------------311--------548------------789--------156
Doug Jones, 1982-2000,------------640--------303----------1,128.3------130
John Franco, 1984-present---------424--------770----------1,230.7------139*
Mike Jackson, 1986-2004,----------422--------142----------1,188.3------126
Jeff Montgomery, 1987-1999,-------304--------549------------868--------134
John Wetteland, 1989--------------330--------523------------765--------148
Trevor Hoffman, 1993-present------394--------578------------764.7------148*
Robb Nen, 1993-2002---------------314--------548------------715.0------138
Mariano Rivera, 1995-present------336--------424------------728.3------190* 
Billy Wagner, 1995-present--------246--------417------------552.7------169*
Eric Gagne, 1999-present----------152--------197------------530--------124*

* = Still Active

[baseballPAP]

A dozen, just for fun.....

1 MARIANO RIVERA
2 Dennis Eckersley
3 Hoyt Wilhelm
4 Rollie Fingers
5 Goose Gossage
6 Dan Quisenberry
7 John Hiller
8 Bruce Sutter
9 TREVOR HOFFMAN
10 BILLY WAGNER
11 Mike Marshall
12 John Franco

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by parlo

Is there a reason you dont include Ekersley?

I know ERA+ is a little dicey for relievers, but as a reliever he had about an ERA+ of 138 for 790 IP. There are at least six guys who did better on BOTH (and more who were close or blew him away on one of the two). This is not to take away from his fine accomplishments as a starter or from his PEAK as a reliever, but otherwise Eck is overrated.

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by jjpm74

I agree with you that there isn't a significant separation there. I was just throwing out 3 names there. Personally, I think the only oversight is Quisenberry to this point (I assume Rivera will get in when he's eligible). Lee Smith is another favorite of mine, but many see him as a compiler.

These guys are all on pretty equal ground, IMO:

Great, you get the first bunch, I get the second bunch, looking forward to playing against ya

Dan Plesac
Rick Aguilera
Dave Righetti
Rob Nenn
Lindy McDaniel
Roy Face
Randy Myers
John Wetteland
Jeff Montgomery
Todd Worrell
Dave Smith
Mike Stanton
Todd Jones

Kent Tekulve
Trevor Hoffman
John Franco
Billy Wagner
Jesse Orosco
Doug Jones
Sparky Lyle
Tom Henke
Mike Marshall
Tug McGraw
Jeff Reardon
Gene Garber
Ron Perranoski

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by Bill Burgess

Relievers Form Chart:

Name, Era-------------------------Saves-----G. Fin.-------INN ---------ERA+
Firpo Marberry, 1923-1936,--------101--------271----------2,067--------134
Hoyt Wilhelm, 1952-1972,--------- 227--------651----------2,254.3------146
Roy Face, 1953-1969, -------------193--------574----------1,375.0------109
Ron Perranoski, 1961-1973,--------179--------458----------1,174--------123
Dick Radatz, 1962-1969------------122--------297------------693.7------122
John Hiller, 1965-1980,-----------125--------363----------1,040--------134
Sparky Lyle, 1967-1982,-----------238--------634----------1,292--------127
Rollie Fingers, 1968-1985---------341--------709----------1,701.3------119
Rich "Goose" Gossage, 1972-1994---310--------681----------1,809.3------126
Kent Tekulve, 1974-1989,----------638--------184----------1,436.3------132
Gary Lavelle, 1974-1987-----------399--------136----------1,085.0------126
Dennis Eckersley, 1975-1998-------390--------577----------3,285.7------116
Bruce Sutter, 1976-1988-----------300--------512----------1,042.3------136
Dan Quisenberry, 1979-1990--------244--------553----------1,043.3------146
Jeff Reardon, 1979-1994-----------367--------695----------1,132.2------121
Dave Righetti, 1979-1995----------252--------474----------1,403.7------114
Jesse Orosco, 1979-2003,----------501--------144----------1,295.0------125
Lee Smith, 1980-1997--------------478--------802----------1,289.3------132
Tom Henke, 1982-95----------------311--------548------------789--------156
Doug Jones, 1982-2000,------------640--------303----------1,128.3------130
John Franco, 1984-present---------424--------770----------1,230.7------139*
Mike Jackson, 1986-2004,----------422--------142----------1,188.3------126
Jeff Montgomery, 1987-1999,-------304--------549------------868--------134
John Wetteland, 1989--------------330--------523------------765--------148
Trevor Hoffman, 1993-present------394--------578------------764.7------148*
Robb Nen, 1993-2002---------------314--------548------------715.0------138
Mariano Rivera, 1995-present------336--------424------------728.3------190* 
Billy Wagner, 1995-present--------246--------417------------552.7------169*
Eric Gagne, 1999-present----------152--------197------------530--------124*

* = Still Active

Um Bill, you might want to separate out the relief innings

[leecemark]

--RMB if you consider Eckersly amoung the relievers (and that is where his greatest moments came) I don't see how its fair to disregard the other half of his career as a starter. He wouldn't be a Hall of Famer without that. He is arguably the most deserving "reliever" with it.
Solid Hall of Famers
1) Goose Gossage
2) Mariano Rivera
3) Hoyt Wilhelm
4) Dennis Eckersly
Marginal Hall of Famers
5) Rollie Fingers
6) Bruce Sutter
7) Dan Quisenberry
In the Discussion
8) Trevor Hoffman
9) Lee Smith
Best of the Rest
LHP
10) John Hller
John Franco
Sparky Lyle
Billy Wagner
Tug McGraw
RHP
Kent Tekulve
Mike Marshall
Don McMahon
Roy Face
Tom Henke
John Wetteland
Troy Percival
(very hard to compare the 1 inning closers with the old time fireman. The closer job is much less demanding)
Lindy McDaniel

[RuthMayBond]

Originally Posted by leecemark

--RMB if you consider Eckersly amoung the relievers (and that is where his greatest moments came) I don't see how its fair to disregard the other half of his career as a starter.

OK, tell me exactly how much credit he gets as a starter that should go towards his relief stats

[leecemark]

--All of it. I don't try and break a players career down into what he did in one role or another. I categorize players based on where they played the most or the best, but consider their entire body of work. Dennis Eckersly was best as a relief pitcher so I compare him to other relievers, but he gets credit for all his pitching. Just like I don't consider only half of Rod Carew or Ernie Banks career.

[parlo]

Are Hoffman and Smith Hall Of Famers ???
My guess is they will eventually get elected by Veterans committees.

[leecemark]

--Hoffman is still active, so it will be quite awhile before we know how he is viewed by Hall of Fame voters. Smith has not drawn significant support. Lee Smith's biggest selling point was being the career saves leader, which is a distinction he no longer holds. I think his chance has passed him by. Hoffman holds the record now, but there is a good chance he won't by the time he faces the voters. If he doesn't have that going for him his chances will be much slimmer, unless the voters start showing a higher degree of respect for relievers (which would not neccessarily be a good thing).

[parlo]

Originally Posted by leecemark

--Hoffman is still active, so it will be quite awhile before we know how he is viewed by Hall of Fame voters. Smith has not drawn significant support. Lee Smith's biggest selling point was being the career saves leader, which is a distinction he no longer holds. I think his chance has passed him by. Hoffman holds the record now, but there is a good chance he won't by the time he faces the voters. If he doesn't have that going for him his chances will be much slimmer, unless the voters start showing a higher degree of respect for relievers (which would not neccessarily be a good thing).

I think respect for relievers will continue to climb, but the respect for the SAVE stat will start to decline. There are going to be just too many relievers with high save totals in the next 5-10 years. This is the original reason I created this thread.
The Save is IMO becoming an inflated padded stat.

[Bill Burgess]

Originally Posted by RuthMayBond

Um Bill, you might want to separate out the relief innings

All that work and all you can respond with is a quibble? Any idea how long that chart took to create?

Since I did all the heavy lifting, I'll let my background research staff separate the relief innings. Are you up to that? Since you asked me to do it?

[dgarza]

Originally Posted by RuthMayBond

OK, tell me exactly how much credit he gets as a starter that should go towards his relief stats

In your 1st post, you said you were considering "career"

[dgarza]

Originally Posted by jjpm74

Lee Smith is another favorite of mine, but many see him as a compiler.

I don't see Lee Smith as just a compiler. He has one of the best (if not thee best) K/IP of any closer in this entire discussion. That's a big point for me.

[dgarza]

Originally Posted by parlo

I think respect for relievers will continue to climb, but the respect for the SAVE stat will start to decline. There are going to be just too many relievers with high save totals in the next 5-10 years. This is the original reason I created this thread.
The Save is IMO becoming an inflated padded stat.

"Is becoming inflated"? "Will start to decline"?
Respect for the save started to decline probably about 15 years ago.
Then once I started to hear the terms "blown save" and "hold" regularly, that's when I knew the save market had bottomed out.