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Think about this: Are Papi and Manny the best 1-2 punch since Gehrig and Ruth?

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  • #61
    The "Ok, Redsox Fan" basically implied that my opinion on Maris was baised because he was on the Yankees. Which I found strange, because you even admit that he was overrated (or atleast shouldn't have been a HoF'er.)

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    • #62
      Originally posted by GiambiJuice
      I apoligize if I came off as condescending or disrespectful.

      Once again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I respect the Red Sox and their fans and it's not like me to be that way. I just felt that one of my favorite players was getting trashed unfairly and I reacted.

      Thanks, GiambiJuice. Very cool for you to post this.
      "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Charger567
        The "Ok, Redsox Fan" basically implied that my opinion on Maris was baised because he was on the Yankees. Which I found strange, because you even admit that he was overrated (or atleast shouldn't have been a HoF'er.)
        He's not in the Hall of Fame, and his name doesn't come up all that often unless people are talking about the home run record. To my knowledge he hasn't gotten much support for the Hall, and he's never mentioned together with the greats of his generation like Mays, Mantle, and Aaron. How is Roger Maris overrated?
        My top 10 players:

        1. Babe Ruth
        2. Barry Bonds
        3. Ty Cobb
        4. Ted Williams
        5. Willie Mays
        6. Alex Rodriguez
        7. Hank Aaron
        8. Honus Wagner
        9. Lou Gehrig
        10. Mickey Mantle

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        • #64
          Originally posted by GiambiJuice
          He's not in the Hall of Fame, and his name doesn't come up all that often unless people are talking about the home run record. To my knowledge he hasn't gotten much support for the Hall, and he's never mentioned together with the greats of his generation like Mays, Mantle, and Aaron. How is Roger Maris overrated?
          Because he is mentioned very often as someone who should be in the hall.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by GiambiJuice
            He's not in the Hall of Fame, and his name doesn't come up all that often unless people are talking about the home run record. To my knowledge he hasn't gotten much support for the Hall, and he's never mentioned together with the greats of his generation like Mays, Mantle, and Aaron. How is Roger Maris overrated?
            Maris actually received fairly decent support from the BBWAA for the Hall. He stayed on the ballot for 15 years and finished at 43.09%. Normally, a player with his kind of career would most likely have been bounced from the ballot from the start, but the support he received from the writers really shows how far '61 and his two MVPs went (of course, two MVPs probably won't help someone like Juan Gonzalez from mustering much support).

            I also think Maris is one of those quirky players that tends to either be underrated or overrated. The underrating crowd thinks he was a one-hit wonder and all he had was '61 and wasn't a particularly good or skilled ballplayer outside of that. The overrating crowd believes that a couple of great years means that Maris had a great career and was a great player. The truth is probably much closer to the middle. Maris did have a couple of great years and several pretty good ones, and was legitimately a very talented player who was plagued by injuries and in his case, the misfortune of breaking Ruth's record. I really think that as a ballplayer, his abilities and potential were very similar to Reggie Smith, which is certainly good company, though still not quite Hall of Fame.

            I actually think had Maris hit less than 50 homeruns in '61 and not had to deal with the stress of chasing Ruth and racing the chosen-boy Mantle, his career as a whole would have looked much better, but that he'd probably have received much less support for the Hall and be remembered much less fondly today.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by DoubleX
              Maris actually received fairly decent support from the BBWAA for the Hall. He stayed on the ballot for 15 years and finished at 43.09%. Normally, a player with his kind of career would most likely have been bounced from the ballot from the start, but the support he received from the writers really shows how far '61 and his two MVPs went (of course, two MVPs probably won't help someone like Juan Gonzalez from mustering much support).

              I also think Maris is one of those quirky players that tends to either be underrated or overrated. The underrating crowd thinks he was a one-hit wonder and all he had was '61 and wasn't a particularly good or skilled ballplayer outside of that. The overrating crowd believes that a couple of great years means that Maris had a great career and was a great player. The truth is probably much closer to the middle. Maris did have a couple of great years and several pretty good ones, and was legitimately a very talented player who was plagued by injuries and in his case, the misfortune of breaking Ruth's record. I really think that as a ballplayer, his abilities and potential were very similar to Reggie Smith, which is certainly good company, though still not quite Hall of Fame.

              I actually think had Maris hit less than 50 homeruns in '61 and not had to deal with the stress of chasing Ruth and racing the chosen-boy Mantle, his career as a whole would have looked much better, but that he'd probably have received much less support for the Hall and be remembered much less fondly today.
              You've made some very good points and I agree with most of them.

              Not to say that two wrongs make a right, does anyone here believe that Bill Mazeroski would have made the HOF if not for one swing of the bat in 1960? I know he was a tremendous defensive player, but there is NO WAY he woulda gotten in without that homerun. At least Maris had a historic season and not one historic hit.

              Truth be told, there are players in the hall who are probably less deserving than Maris (Rizzuto is another one IMO). But that's not a reason to put him in. I just don't think he's been overrated. He didn't deserve to make it. But based on his accomplishments and other players who made it in, he did deserve SOME consideration.
              Last edited by GiambiJuice; 01-15-2007, 08:22 AM.
              My top 10 players:

              1. Babe Ruth
              2. Barry Bonds
              3. Ty Cobb
              4. Ted Williams
              5. Willie Mays
              6. Alex Rodriguez
              7. Hank Aaron
              8. Honus Wagner
              9. Lou Gehrig
              10. Mickey Mantle

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by FlashGordon
                If you like your athletes juiced, then why not?

                Or if you like your athletes that are all WHITE, Why not? !!!


                Wonder what Ruth and Gehrig's numbers would have been with black opposing players ?!?!? Or any non-whites for that matter !!!
                Last edited by chudddds; 01-15-2007, 11:51 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by chudddds
                  Or if you like your athletes that are all WHITE, Why not? !!!


                  Wonder what Ruth and Gehrig's numbers would have been with black opposing players ?!?!? Or any non-whites for that matter !!!
                  Oh please, thats pretty ridiculous. Yeah, if 5% of the pitchers they were facing would have been black they would have totally sucked...

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by chudddds
                    Or if you like your athletes that are all WHITE, Why not? !!!


                    Wonder what Ruth and Gehrig's numbers would have been with black opposing players ?!?!? Or any non-whites for that matter !!!
                    I'm big on the argument that the accomplishments of all Major Leaguers prior to integration are diluted because they did not play against the best talent available. Would the stars of the day still be the same and look as good as they did if they competed against the minority talent? It's doubtful - look no further than the influx of African-American stars in the 1950s and 1960s - the equivalents of these players likely existed in the 1920s and 1930s, but unfortunately never got to see them in the Majors.

                    Nevertheless, the chances are, even in an integrated league, the cream would still rise to the top, and Ruth and Gehrig were the cream of the Major Leagues when they played. Their offensive production was just so far and away dominant in their time that even in an integrated league, they both still would almost definitely have been among the very best players of the time. Granted, they might not have stood out quite as much or looked quite as dominant, but they'd still be well up there. Ruth and Gehrig were just so good in the context of their time, that throwing in a small percentage of higher quality players into the league would likely not have that great of an effect on Ruth's and Gehrig's producton and status. What would have been more greatly affected would be the quality of the average Major Leaguer, which would have been improved if the league was integrated, and as a result, stars like Ruth and Gehrig would likely not deviate from the mean quite as much as they did because the mean would be a little higher. There would also be a different set of stars of the day as a lot of the second tier white stars would be more afterthoughts as some their star status would be occupied be superior African-American players. In this respect, I'm thinking of guys like Edd Roush, Pie Traynor, Jim Bottomley, Heinie Manush, Joe Sewell, Rabbit Maranville, Chuck Klein, Joe Medwick, Hack Wilson, Earl Averill, and the like. I think most of these guys would still be perceived as good players in an integrated, but perhaps not as much so as they were in their white only league. However, that too wouldn't much affect Ruth and Gehrig, because again, they were so far and above everyone else that even in an integrated league, they'd still likely be among the very best players in the game, and still likely by a large margin (though they'd probably share that distinction with guys like Oscar Charleston and Josh Gibson).

                    Also, on the converse, you could ask how Manny and Ortiz would fare in the much, much larger ballparks that were used back when Ruth and Gehrig played.

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