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  • Red Sox All-Stars

    Thought I'd start a thread dedicated to any reactions/predictions/general thoughts pertaining to the All-Star game tonight, particularly thoughts on our own: Ortiz, Loretta and Papelbon.

    Let the game begin! :gt
    "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

  • #2
    Outsider's view: Plain and simple, Mark Loretta is not an all star. Everything about him screams average except his slightly above average BA. And for a two-hitter (on the Red Sox, no less) he better be hitting .305. Robinson Cano, Brian Roberts and Jose Lopez are all more deserving. I realize Cano and Lopez are on the team, but neither are starting thanks to Sox fans voting for their own guy regardless of numbers. Speaking of Sox, Iguchi is also more deserving (his numbers are decieving -- he is a smart hitter who almost always does what he has to do). As an AL fan, I would even rather have Ian Kinsler out there.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ichiro262
      Outsider's view: Plain and simple, Mark Loretta is not an all star. Everything about him screams average except his slightly above average BA. And for a two-hitter (on the Red Sox, no less) he better be hitting .305. Robinson Cano, Brian Roberts and Jose Lopez are all more deserving. I realize Cano and Lopez are on the team, but neither are starting thanks to Sox fans voting for their own guy regardless of numbers. Speaking of Sox, Iguchi is also more deserving (his numbers are decieving -- he is a smart hitter who almost always does what he has to do). As an AL fan, I would even rather have Ian Kinsler out there.
      I think we've all heard our share of "Loretta is undeserving." This is the Red Sox forum, ichiro262, so understandably, we're going to try and discuss the pros and cons of everything.

      In addition, I would say that I see nothing wrong with fans of any team voting in their own.
      "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

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      • #4
        What do you guys think of Manny? I personally have no problem with a player wanting to use the All Star break to rest up for the stretch run. In many ways, it shows that he has his priorities straight. But it seems like Manny is taking a lot of guff from the media, particularly since he received the highest fan vote total.

        I recall one of the ESPN commentators last night just before the home run derby, I think Harold Reynolds, say that if Manny is really hurt, he shouldn't be playing so much before the All Star break. I don't agree with that at all. Sure, Manny probably isn't that hurt, and it would be good of him to at least show up for the game to pay homage to the fans who supported him, but if he's healthy enough to help his team, he should be helping his team and using this exhibition period as the time to rest up so he can go back and help his team.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by DoubleX
          What do you guys think of Manny? I personally have no problem with a player wanting to use the All Star break to rest up for the stretch run. In many ways, it shows that he has his priorities straight. But it seems like Manny is taking a lot of guff from the media, particularly since he received the highest fan vote total.

          I recall one of the ESPN commentators last night just before the home run derby, I think Harold Reynolds, say that if Manny is really hurt, he shouldn't be playing so much before the All Star break. I don't agree with that at all. Sure, Manny probably isn't that hurt, and it would be good of him to at least show up for the game to pay homage to the fans who supported him, but if he's healthy enough to help his team, he should be helping his team and using this exhibition period as the time to rest up so he can go back and help his team.
          It certainly hurts Manny's reputation that this is the third time he's pulled out of an All-Star game (also missed in 2000 and 2003). Manny is taking a lot of guff from everyone not only because he is the highest vote-getter, but also because he doesn't talk to the media. Therefore, folks assume the worst about him.

          Either way, I think Manny has the right not to go. If I were the one getting the votes, it would take a coma to keep me from Pittsburgh, but that's all right. He may be really hurt, or they may be hyping it up a bit, I don't know. I do know, though, that fans need to keep things in perspective and realize Manny's not causing horrible injury to others with his absence.
          "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

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          • #6
            Originally posted by SoxSon
            It certainly hurts Manny's reputation that this is the third time he's pulled out of an All-Star game (also missed in 2000 and 2003). Manny is taking a lot of guff from everyone not only because he is the highest vote-getter, but also because he doesn't talk to the media. Therefore, folks assume the worst about him.

            Either way, I think Manny has the right not to go. If I were the one getting the votes, it would take a coma to keep me from Pittsburgh, but that's all right. He may be really hurt, or they may be hyping it up a bit, I don't know. I do know, though, that fans need to keep things in perspective and realize Manny's not causing horrible injury to others with his absence.
            Yes I agree. Im glad he wont play because the all-star game is basicly a meaningless exhibition game with the chance of an injury occuring. Now im sure the Red Sox organazation is sort of overhyping the injury to keep Manny happy in Boston but the media is also overhyping that Manny is lazy and stuff for not playing in the all-star game. The other day when the game was on Fox the commentators seemed to keep picking on Manny for not playing. But he has every right not to play and im glad he wont. And who knows Manny could really have a sore knee and I dont want to take the chance of losing our clean up hitter.
            go sox.

            Pigskin-Fever

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            • #7
              It looks like the three of us (SoxSon, RedSoxVt, and me) agree that it's in Manny's right not to play. But how do you guys feel about not showing up at all? Tom Glavine, Jose Reyes, Jose Contreras, and Robinson Cano are all there (I'm not sure about Pedro, but my guess would be that he's not, though unlike Manny he is actually on the DL), so why can't Manny be there? Cano for example is actually injured and on the DL and probably should be using this time to rehab. So while I understand that player might be aching and would be better served from resting up these few days then playing in the game, I think it is an affront when you don't even bother to show up, particularly when you are the highest vote getter. It's real insult to the fans that make his astronomical and ridiculous salary possible.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by DoubleX
                It looks like the three of us (SoxSon, RedSoxVt, and me) agree that it's in Manny's right not to play. But how do you guys feel about not showing up at all? Tom Glavine, Jose Reyes, Jose Contreras, and Robinson Cano are all there (I'm not sure about Pedro, but my guess would be that he's not, though unlike Manny he is actually on the DL), so why can't Manny be there? Cano for example is actually injured and on the DL and probably should be using this time to rehab. So while I understand that player might be aching and would be better served from resting up these few days then playing in the game, I think it is an affront when you don't even bother to show up, particularly when you are the highest vote getter. It's real insult to the fans that make his astronomical and ridiculous salary possible.
                I'm sorting out how I feel about it, XX. I suppose if a player is too hurt to play in the game, then one could argue that travelling to Pittsburgh isn't medically sound, either.

                It's probably unfair to compare Manny and Cano at all, only because the expectations put upon a player of Manny's stature at an All-Star game (even off-field) are many times greater than those of Cano. I hear what you're saying about it being a potential insult to the voters, but I guess I view the current All-Star Game as an affront of sorts already, so it's hard for me to feel strongly about it.
                "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SoxSon
                  It's probably unfair to compare Manny and Cano at all, only because the expectations put upon a player of Manny's stature at an All-Star game (even off-field) are many times greater than those of Cano. I hear what you're saying about it being a potential insult to the voters, but I guess I view the current All-Star Game as an affront of sorts already, so it's hard for me to feel strongly about it.
                  I agree - the All Star Game has lost a lot of its luster in recent year, and a lot of that has to do with bonafide stars, like Manny Ramirez, showing absolutely no interest in it and no interest in giving a thank you show to fans. How are the fans supposed to care if the players they adore don't?

                  I also agree that if a player is too hurt it's probably not worth going. I sort of subtley made that point in my first post when I pointed out that Cano is there despite being on the DL and should probably be using this time to rehab. Same goes for Pedro. Manny might be sore and aching, but he's probably no worse off than many of the guys there, and certainly not too sore to make the trip. If he doesn't want to play and would rather rest up "for the sake of the team," that's fine by me. But unless he's legitimately hurt, I think he should at least show up, tip his hat, and show he cares about not just the All Star game, but baseball and the fans that love him. The game and the fans have been extraordinarily good to him - imagine where he'd be without it all. The least he can do is show that he appreciates this position of privilege and the fans that adore him and would kill to be in his position.
                  Last edited by DoubleX; 07-11-2006, 07:28 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ichiro262
                    Outsider's view: Plain and simple, Mark Loretta is not an all star. Everything about him screams average except his slightly above average BA. And for a two-hitter (on the Red Sox, no less) he better be hitting .305. Robinson Cano, Brian Roberts and Jose Lopez are all more deserving. I realize Cano and Lopez are on the team, but neither are starting thanks to Sox fans voting for their own guy regardless of numbers. Speaking of Sox, Iguchi is also more deserving (his numbers are decieving -- he is a smart hitter who almost always does what he has to do). As an AL fan, I would even rather have Ian Kinsler out there.
                    He's hitting about second or third overall among AL 2B in most categories and he is on a winning team in first place. He would be on team AND STARTING regardless of the fan votes- Cano couldn't play and Lopez isn't as good as him in most stats.

                    And you are right about one thing- his numbers are deceiving. He is much better than what his stats show.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by efin98
                      He's hitting about second or third overall among AL 2B in most categories and he is on a winning team in first place. He would be on team AND STARTING regardless of the fan votes- Cano couldn't play and Lopez isn't as good as him in most stats.

                      And you are right about one thing- his numbers are deceiving. He is much better than what his stats show.
                      I don't have much of a problem with Loretta being at the All Star game, though I don't believe he should have been voted the starter. He was a good pickup by the Sox, especially since it only cost a backup catcher (who returned to the Sox anyway). Loretta is a very solid player in almost all facets, but he doesn't rank second or third in most categories at AL 2B, only in BA.

                      Batting Average
                      1) Robinson Cano - .325
                      2) Mark Loretta - .305 (If you don't count Ian Kinsler who hasn't had quite enough ABs but is hitting .320 - he would rank ahead of Loretta in most of the rate categories (OPS, OBP, SLG) if he qualified)
                      3) Aaron Hill - .297
                      4) Brian Roberts - .296
                      5) Ronnie Belliard - .291
                      6) Mark Grudzielanek - .291
                      7) Tadahito Iguchi - .287
                      8) Placido Polanco - .285
                      9) Luis Castillo - .280
                      10) Jose Lopez - .280

                      OPS
                      1) Robinson Cano - .792
                      2) Tadahito Iguchi - .775
                      3) Jose Lopez - .771
                      4) Ronnie Belliard - .764
                      5) Jorge Cantu - .751
                      6) Brian Roberts - .745
                      7) Mark Loretta - .738
                      8) Aaron Hill - .734
                      9) Mark Grudzielanek - .731
                      10) Luis Castillo - .697

                      Homeruns
                      1) Tadahito Iguchi - 10
                      2) Jose Lopez - 9
                      3) Ronnie Belliard - 8
                      4) Ian Kinsler - 7
                      5) Jorge Cantu - 6
                      6) Robinson Cano - 4
                      t7) Mark Ellis - 3
                      t7) Mark Grudielanek - 3
                      t7) Mark Loretta - 3
                      t7) Placido Polanco - 3

                      RBI
                      1) Jose Lopez - 58
                      2) Ronnie Belliard - 42
                      3) Tadahito Iguchi - 40
                      4) Mark Loretta - 37
                      5) Brian Roberts - 33
                      6) Placido Polanco - 32
                      t7) Jorge Cantu - 31
                      t7) Adam Kennedy - 31
                      9) Luis Castillo - 29
                      10) Aaron Hill - 28

                      Runs
                      1) Tadahito Iguchi -57
                      2) Luis Castillo - 50
                      3) Mark Grudielanek - 49
                      4) Jose Lopez - 48
                      5) Mark Loretta - 44
                      6) Ronnie Belliard -42
                      7) Brian Roberts - 41
                      8) Placido Polanco - 39
                      9) Aaron Hill - 37
                      10) Robinson Cano - 34

                      Stolen Bases
                      1) Brian Roberts - 22
                      t2) Miguel Cairo - 9
                      t2) Luis Castillo - 9
                      4) Adam Kennedy - 8
                      5) Tadahito Iguchi - 5
                      t6) Robinson Cano - 3
                      t6) Mark Ellis - 3
                      t6) Aaron Hill - 3
                      t9) Ronnie Belliard - 2
                      t9) Howie Kendrick - 2
                      t9) Ian Kinsler - 2
                      t9) Jose Lopez - 2
                      t9) Mark Loretta - 2

                      Slugging
                      1) Jose Lopez - .454
                      2) Robinson Cano - .439
                      3) Jorge Cantu - .433
                      4) Tadahito Iguchi - .429
                      5) Ronnie Belliard - .425
                      6) Mark Grudielanek - .403
                      7) Aaron Hill - .390
                      8) Mark Loretta - .385
                      9) Brian Roberts - .383
                      10) Adam Kennedy - .363

                      OBP
                      1) Brian Roberts - .361
                      2) Robinson Cano - .353
                      3) Mark Loretta - .353
                      4) Tadahito Iguchi - .346
                      5) Aaron Hill - .344
                      6) Luis Castillo - .342
                      7) Ronnie Belliard - .339
                      8) Mark Grudielanek - .328
                      9) Jorge Cantu - .318
                      10) Placido Polanco - .318

                      Like I said, I don't mind Loretta being there so much because he is very solid and the BA is nice (though likely inflated by Fenway), but if I really had to rank the players, I'd say that Loretta should be waiting in line behind Cano, Iguchi, and Lopez for the All Star team.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm sure this will be one of those "Manny being Manny" moments again. Some of the stuff he does is self-inflicted. I would have liked to see him play/bat if just for 1 inning. Probably not that many people knows just how hurt he is or isn't. I certainly understand his reason to rest.

                        Will be interesting next year to see how the voting goes for him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The Red Sox all-stars didnt perform so great this all-star game going 0-4 with a strikeout. Papelbon didnt even get into the game at all. It is still a honor to be selected for the all-star game in the first place. And the American League won anyways.

                          That was a pretty good game but it went by pretty fast
                          go sox.

                          Pigskin-Fever

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                          • #14
                            I was surprised Papelbon didn't get an appearance. He has certainly earned it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Red Sox had a 19 inning game...

                              Then the All Stars had a plane ride..

                              1. Why Ortiz did horribly in the Home Run Derby.

                              2. Why Francona requested that Papelbon not pitch; Papelbon knew it before he arrived. He had exceeded his usual pitch count, Francona wanted him rested, and told Ozzie.

                              3. Ortiz and Francona both vouched for Manny's knee, Francona had informed MLB, so Selig's talk about Manny is a bunch of ....
                              Varitek=Future Red Sox Manager
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