Red Sox Retired Numbers?

[SDL]

He might not have spent enough time, but wasnt good enough?? He was plenty good when he was here.

I'd retire #5 before 21 and 45....unlike Nomar, they didn't want to leave....

[EvanAparra]

Pedro didnt want to leave? Then he should have taken the deal that was offered to him.

[SDL]

Pedro didnt want to leave? Then he should have taken the deal that was offered to him.

My error (try to concentrate when you have two cats loudly fighting in the next room).

What I MEANT to say was that Nomar wanted to stay, unlike Pedro, Clemens and Boggs.

[EvanAparra]

Ah, i see. I think Clemens wanted to stay more than Nomar.(Although im not completely familiar with Clemens case) Nomar always said he wanted to stay in public, but his agent approached Theo a couple times, saying that Nomar wanted a trade.

Nomar denies that he had anything to do with it, however. I know Nomar wasnt happy in Boston, but whether he actually asked to leave is another question.

[DoubleX]

My error (try to concentrate when you have two cats loudly fighting in the next room).

What I MEANT to say was that Nomar wanted to stay, unlike Pedro, Clemens and Boggs.

The Sox kicked Clemens and Boggs to the curb and made half-hearted efforts at bringing them back. Who can forget Dan Duquette in the offseason after Clemens' last year with the Sox announcing that Clemens' is in his twilight. I think the Red Sox treatment of Clemens at the end of his tenure with the team is what fueled him to be so dominant during the next 10 years. I don't see Clemens being as good as he's been without the Sox disrespecting him like they did.

Same thing happend with Boggs. Boggs' BA took a nosedive in 1992, all the way down to .259, and the Sox thought he was done. I suppose I can understand that - if Boggs isn't hitting over .300, he's doesn't really offer much. Plus the Sox thought they had a bonafide replacement in the form of the great Scott Cooper (who actually, and quite inexplicably, was an All Star in '93 and '94). Boggs' departure really came down to the fact that the Sox picked the young Cooper, who's star appearead to be on the rise, over the aging Boggs, whose star appeared to de diminishing.

Pedro was along these lines too - the Sox didn't make a huge effort to keep him. Much like the team did with Boggs and Clemens, they projected into the future and with Pedro saw a brittle pitcher whose best days are behind him and who would be injured more often than not in the years to come, especially since Pedro was looking for a 4 year deal, which seemed like a pretty gamble at the time. This was a pretty reasonable prognosis, but the guy can still bring it when he pitches; though 4 years did seem excessive at the time given the circumstances. So I'd chalk this one up to a combination between the Sox efforts and Pedro's demands; but with Clemens and Boggs, the team really missed the boat and held the door open for two greats.

Mo Vaughn and Johnny Damon were allowed to leave in similar situations - the Sox assessed the projected contributions of the players and determined that it wasn't worth the cost. Vaughn was understandable given his build (guys like that don't age well) and his huge contract demands (as evidenced by the ridiculous contract he received from Anaheim). Damon was a bit more inexplicable, though understandable and I was pretty sure at the time that the Yanks overpaid for Damon and that Damon was on the decline.

Bottom line, the Sox over the past 15 years or so have a history of cutting ties to their stars (this trend could probably even be traced back further to the departures of Fred Lynn and Carlton Fisk). It takes guts to do things like this, especially with guys on the talent level of Boggs, Clemens, and Martinez, or on the fan love level of Damon; but the lack of loyalty by the front office has to be distressing and understandably is a risking proposition that can blow up in their faces (for example, you don't hear much about how the Sox were right about Vaughn, but you do hear quite a bit about Boggs, Clemens, and now Martinez and Damon).

[SDL]

The Sox kicked Clemens and Boggs to the curb and made half-hearted efforts at bringing them back. Who can forget Dan Duquette in the offseason after Clemens' last year with the Sox announcing that Clemens' is in his twilight. I think the Red Sox treatment of Clemens at the end of his tenure with the team is what fueled him to be so dominant during the next 10 years. I don't see Clemens being as good as he's been without the Sox disrespecting him like they did.

Same thing happend with Boggs. Boggs' BA took a nosedive in 1992, all the way down to .259, and the Sox thought he was done. I suppose I can understand that - if Boggs isn't hitting over .300, he's doesn't really offer much. Plus the Sox thought they had a bonafide replacement in the form of the great Scott Cooper (who actually, and quite inexplicably, was an All Star in '93 and '94). Boggs' departure really came down to the fact that the Sox picked Cooper over Boggs.

Pedro was along these lines too - the Sox didn't make a huge effort to keep him. Much like the team did with Boggs and Clemens, they projected into the future and with Pedro saw a brittle pitcher whose best days are behind him and who would be injured more often than not in the years to come, especially since Pedro was looking for a 4 year deal, which seemed like a pretty gamble at the time. This was a pretty reasonable prognosis, but the guy can still bring it when he pitches; though 4 years did seem excessive at the time given the circumstances. So I'd chalk this one up to a combination between the Sox efforts and Pedro's demands; but with Clemens and Boggs, the team really missed the boat and held the door open for two greats.

I never forgot Boggs' little jab in '93 about how he didn't know anything about the Red Sox..that he was a "rookie" with the Yankees...

One time I was at a spring training game in WPB against the Expos and I loudly reminded Wade that Lou Merloni looked GREAT wearing #26.

Maybe if Boggs and Clemens PUBLICALLY apologize to the Boston fans, I'd say it'd be OK to hang up #26 and #21 over the RF stands...

[DoubleX]

I never forgot Boggs' little jab in '93 about how he didn't know anything about the Red Sox..that he was a "rookie" with the Yankees...

One time I was at a spring training game in WPB against the Expos and I loudly reminded Wade that Lou Merloni looked GREAT wearing #26.

Maybe if Boggs and Clemens PUBLICALLY apologize to the Boston fans, I'd say it'd be OK to hang up #26 and #21 over the RF stands...

Publically apologize for what? For being undervalued and underappreciated by their team and then moving on to teams that better coveted what they had to offer at that stage in their careers? What's Clemens going to say? "I'm sorry Mr. Duquette thought my career was in its twilight and it was not worth it to bring me back to the only professional team I've ever known."

[VTSoxFan]

Nomar denies that he had anything to do with it, however. I know Nomar wasnt happy in Boston, but whether he actually asked to leave is another question.

If you had characters like Shaughnessy, Edes, etc. daily tearing you to shreds in the paper, and people believing them over your own word, wouldn't you be unhappy? I sure would.

I personally don't think he ever really wanted to leave.

Interesting note: during Nomar's first spring training after the Trade, Edes wrote an article about him which began "Like a snake shedding its skin under a desert sun, Nomar walked smiling into the Cubs clubhouse..." The disrespect was thick and palpable. Stephen King was right when he called the Boston sports media "cannibals".

Sorry for the sidebar -- back to the retired numbres discussion.

[DoubleX]

If you had characters like Shaughnessy, Edes, etc. daily tearing you to shreds in the paper, and people believing them over your own word, wouldn't you be unhappy? I sure would.

I personally don't think he ever really wanted to leave.

Interesting note: during Nomar's first spring training after the Trade, Edes wrote an article about him which began "Like a snake shedding its skin under a desert sun, Nomar walked smiling into the Cubs clubhouse..." The disrespect was thick and palpable. Stephen King was right when he called the Boston sports media "cannibals".

Sorry for the sidebar -- back to the retired numbres discussion.

I don't know whether Nomar wanted to leave or if it was just another fiction created by the Boston media, but I remember two things from that 2004 season when Nomar was still there:

1) He seemed to take an inordinate amount of time to recover from his injury.

2) His sitting on the bench while the rest of his teamates were on the railing as the Red Sox and Yankees battled in that great extra innings game (the game where Jeter dove into the stands).

[EvanAparra]

I don't know whether Nomar wanted to leave or if it was just another fiction created by the Boston media, but I remember two things from that 2004 season when Nomar was still there:

1) He seemed to take an inordinate amount of time to recover from his injury.

2) His sitting on the bench while the rest of his teamates were on the railing as the Red Sox and Yankees battled in that great extra innings game (the game where Jeter dove into the stands).

I think i remember that after Jeter made that play, Nomar asked into the game, and Francona didnt let him play.

[PhilWings24]

He might not have spent enough time, but wasnt good enough?? He was plenty good when he was here.

well i guess that's sort of what i mean.

i just mean that Pedro was so ridiculously good while a member of the team, his relatively short tenure could be overlooked. Nomar wasn't anything close to that good.

I'm not the Nomar fan that most sox fans are, when he was healthy i liked him because i sympathize with any player overshadowed by derek jeter, but it really seemed that in 2004 he was nothing short of a cancer to the team. teammates complained about him privately, he didn't seem to care about the games to nearly the degree his teammates did, and while he was very good with the red sox, he wasn't close to pedro's level.

so yeah, what i really mean is that pedro wasn't there long enough, and nomar wasn't there long enough. but pedro was SO good while he was there that his short tenure doesn't mean much to me, whereas nomar was very good, but not good enough to overlook the short time he spend with the team.

[PhilWings24]

If you had characters like Shaughnessy, Edes, etc. daily tearing you to shreds in the paper, and people believing them over your own word, wouldn't you be unhappy? I sure would.

I personally don't think he ever really wanted to leave.

Interesting note: during Nomar's first spring training after the Trade, Edes wrote an article about him which began "Like a snake shedding its skin under a desert sun, Nomar walked smiling into the Cubs clubhouse..." The disrespect was thick and palpable. Stephen King was right when he called the Boston sports media "cannibals".

Sorry for the sidebar -- back to the retired numbres discussion.

i would've been with you until the game at yankee stadium where there were 9 players on the field, 15 on the top step of the dugout, and 1 sulking and daydreaming on the bench, and nomar was that one.

actually i think i still am with you for the most part, except to me he clearly wanted to leave, i just don't think it was a whiney brat sort of "i feel disrespected" thing. i think he just couldn't handle the pressue in boston (though i learned from Feeding the Monster it apparently effected his personal life much, much more than it affected his game. he quite literally went insane for a while, thinking the Sox were tapping his phone and stuff).

the only thing that really turned me against him was his supposed fued with the front office, where he alledgedly held them hostage and basically forced them to trade him.

so i think he wanted out for sure, but i don't think it was at all like pedro feeling "disrespected" and was really just an enormous attention hog. i think it was more that he almost loved boston too much, and wouldn't be able to enjoy himself there until he won 5 straight gold gloves and batted 1.000 while never missing a game.

[The Kid]

Why Foxx and Grove? Can someone explain to me why Red Sox fans associate Foxx and Grove with the Sox? The bulk of their careers, and the bulk of their best years, were with the Athletics, where they helped lead the team to two World Series and three straight pennants.

even though Grove was hurt during his sox career, he still put up pretty good numbers.

And don't get me started on Foxx.

[-Kyle-]

Why Foxx and Grove? Can someone explain to me why Red Sox fans associate Foxx and Grove with the Sox? The bulk of their careers, and the bulk of their best years, were with the Athletics, where they helped lead the team to two World Series and three straight pennants.

Why is your username Double X anyways, wouldn't you rather have it after a Yank or something. Just wonderin'

[DoubleX]

even though Grove was hurt during his sox career, he still put up pretty good numbers.

And don't get me started on Foxx.

If you have time, you should go back to earlier in the thread where I compare what Grove and Foxx did for Red Sox compared to the Athletics. For Grove, the comparison is not even close. He was good, but nothing like the dominant pitcher we think of when we think of the Lefty Grove, when he was with the Red Sox. He was a 190 inning a year pitcher with the Sox compared to a 280 inning a year pitcher with the A's.

Foxx is a much closer comparison.