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Red Sox Retired Numbers?

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  • PhilWings24
    replied
    Originally posted by EvanAparra
    He might not have spent enough time, but wasnt good enough?? He was plenty good when he was here.
    well i guess that's sort of what i mean.

    i just mean that Pedro was so ridiculously good while a member of the team, his relatively short tenure could be overlooked. Nomar wasn't anything close to that good.

    I'm not the Nomar fan that most sox fans are, when he was healthy i liked him because i sympathize with any player overshadowed by derek jeter, but it really seemed that in 2004 he was nothing short of a cancer to the team. teammates complained about him privately, he didn't seem to care about the games to nearly the degree his teammates did, and while he was very good with the red sox, he wasn't close to pedro's level.

    so yeah, what i really mean is that pedro wasn't there long enough, and nomar wasn't there long enough. but pedro was SO good while he was there that his short tenure doesn't mean much to me, whereas nomar was very good, but not good enough to overlook the short time he spend with the team.

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  • EvanAparra
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    I don't know whether Nomar wanted to leave or if it was just another fiction created by the Boston media, but I remember two things from that 2004 season when Nomar was still there:

    1) He seemed to take an inordinate amount of time to recover from his injury.

    2) His sitting on the bench while the rest of his teamates were on the railing as the Red Sox and Yankees battled in that great extra innings game (the game where Jeter dove into the stands).
    I think i remember that after Jeter made that play, Nomar asked into the game, and Francona didnt let him play.

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  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by VTSoxFan
    If you had characters like Shaughnessy, Edes, etc. daily tearing you to shreds in the paper, and people believing them over your own word, wouldn't you be unhappy? I sure would.

    I personally don't think he ever really wanted to leave.

    Interesting note: during Nomar's first spring training after the Trade, Edes wrote an article about him which began "Like a snake shedding its skin under a desert sun, Nomar walked smiling into the Cubs clubhouse..." The disrespect was thick and palpable. Stephen King was right when he called the Boston sports media "cannibals".

    Sorry for the sidebar -- back to the retired numbres discussion.
    I don't know whether Nomar wanted to leave or if it was just another fiction created by the Boston media, but I remember two things from that 2004 season when Nomar was still there:

    1) He seemed to take an inordinate amount of time to recover from his injury.

    2) His sitting on the bench while the rest of his teamates were on the railing as the Red Sox and Yankees battled in that great extra innings game (the game where Jeter dove into the stands).

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  • VTSoxFan
    replied
    Originally posted by EvanAparra

    Nomar denies that he had anything to do with it, however. I know Nomar wasnt happy in Boston, but whether he actually asked to leave is another question.
    If you had characters like Shaughnessy, Edes, etc. daily tearing you to shreds in the paper, and people believing them over your own word, wouldn't you be unhappy? I sure would.

    I personally don't think he ever really wanted to leave.

    Interesting note: during Nomar's first spring training after the Trade, Edes wrote an article about him which began "Like a snake shedding its skin under a desert sun, Nomar walked smiling into the Cubs clubhouse..." The disrespect was thick and palpable. Stephen King was right when he called the Boston sports media "cannibals".

    Sorry for the sidebar -- back to the retired numbres discussion.

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by SDL
    I never forgot Boggs' little jab in '93 about how he didn't know anything about the Red Sox..that he was a "rookie" with the Yankees...

    One time I was at a spring training game in WPB against the Expos and I loudly reminded Wade that Lou Merloni looked GREAT wearing #26.

    Maybe if Boggs and Clemens PUBLICALLY apologize to the Boston fans, I'd say it'd be OK to hang up #26 and #21 over the RF stands...
    Publically apologize for what? For being undervalued and underappreciated by their team and then moving on to teams that better coveted what they had to offer at that stage in their careers? What's Clemens going to say? "I'm sorry Mr. Duquette thought my career was in its twilight and it was not worth it to bring me back to the only professional team I've ever known."

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  • SDL
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    The Sox kicked Clemens and Boggs to the curb and made half-hearted efforts at bringing them back. Who can forget Dan Duquette in the offseason after Clemens' last year with the Sox announcing that Clemens' is in his twilight. I think the Red Sox treatment of Clemens at the end of his tenure with the team is what fueled him to be so dominant during the next 10 years. I don't see Clemens being as good as he's been without the Sox disrespecting him like they did.

    Same thing happend with Boggs. Boggs' BA took a nosedive in 1992, all the way down to .259, and the Sox thought he was done. I suppose I can understand that - if Boggs isn't hitting over .300, he's doesn't really offer much. Plus the Sox thought they had a bonafide replacement in the form of the great Scott Cooper (who actually, and quite inexplicably, was an All Star in '93 and '94). Boggs' departure really came down to the fact that the Sox picked Cooper over Boggs.

    Pedro was along these lines too - the Sox didn't make a huge effort to keep him. Much like the team did with Boggs and Clemens, they projected into the future and with Pedro saw a brittle pitcher whose best days are behind him and who would be injured more often than not in the years to come, especially since Pedro was looking for a 4 year deal, which seemed like a pretty gamble at the time. This was a pretty reasonable prognosis, but the guy can still bring it when he pitches; though 4 years did seem excessive at the time given the circumstances. So I'd chalk this one up to a combination between the Sox efforts and Pedro's demands; but with Clemens and Boggs, the team really missed the boat and held the door open for two greats.
    I never forgot Boggs' little jab in '93 about how he didn't know anything about the Red Sox..that he was a "rookie" with the Yankees...

    One time I was at a spring training game in WPB against the Expos and I loudly reminded Wade that Lou Merloni looked GREAT wearing #26.

    Maybe if Boggs and Clemens PUBLICALLY apologize to the Boston fans, I'd say it'd be OK to hang up #26 and #21 over the RF stands...

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by SDL
    My error (try to concentrate when you have two cats loudly fighting in the next room).

    What I MEANT to say was that Nomar wanted to stay, unlike Pedro, Clemens and Boggs.
    The Sox kicked Clemens and Boggs to the curb and made half-hearted efforts at bringing them back. Who can forget Dan Duquette in the offseason after Clemens' last year with the Sox announcing that Clemens' is in his twilight. I think the Red Sox treatment of Clemens at the end of his tenure with the team is what fueled him to be so dominant during the next 10 years. I don't see Clemens being as good as he's been without the Sox disrespecting him like they did.

    Same thing happend with Boggs. Boggs' BA took a nosedive in 1992, all the way down to .259, and the Sox thought he was done. I suppose I can understand that - if Boggs isn't hitting over .300, he's doesn't really offer much. Plus the Sox thought they had a bonafide replacement in the form of the great Scott Cooper (who actually, and quite inexplicably, was an All Star in '93 and '94). Boggs' departure really came down to the fact that the Sox picked the young Cooper, who's star appearead to be on the rise, over the aging Boggs, whose star appeared to de diminishing.

    Pedro was along these lines too - the Sox didn't make a huge effort to keep him. Much like the team did with Boggs and Clemens, they projected into the future and with Pedro saw a brittle pitcher whose best days are behind him and who would be injured more often than not in the years to come, especially since Pedro was looking for a 4 year deal, which seemed like a pretty gamble at the time. This was a pretty reasonable prognosis, but the guy can still bring it when he pitches; though 4 years did seem excessive at the time given the circumstances. So I'd chalk this one up to a combination between the Sox efforts and Pedro's demands; but with Clemens and Boggs, the team really missed the boat and held the door open for two greats.

    Mo Vaughn and Johnny Damon were allowed to leave in similar situations - the Sox assessed the projected contributions of the players and determined that it wasn't worth the cost. Vaughn was understandable given his build (guys like that don't age well) and his huge contract demands (as evidenced by the ridiculous contract he received from Anaheim). Damon was a bit more inexplicable, though understandable and I was pretty sure at the time that the Yanks overpaid for Damon and that Damon was on the decline.

    Bottom line, the Sox over the past 15 years or so have a history of cutting ties to their stars (this trend could probably even be traced back further to the departures of Fred Lynn and Carlton Fisk). It takes guts to do things like this, especially with guys on the talent level of Boggs, Clemens, and Martinez, or on the fan love level of Damon; but the lack of loyalty by the front office has to be distressing and understandably is a risking proposition that can blow up in their faces (for example, you don't hear much about how the Sox were right about Vaughn, but you do hear quite a bit about Boggs, Clemens, and now Martinez and Damon).
    Last edited by DoubleX; 09-18-2006, 08:40 PM.

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  • EvanAparra
    replied
    Ah, i see. I think Clemens wanted to stay more than Nomar.(Although im not completely familiar with Clemens case) Nomar always said he wanted to stay in public, but his agent approached Theo a couple times, saying that Nomar wanted a trade.

    Nomar denies that he had anything to do with it, however. I know Nomar wasnt happy in Boston, but whether he actually asked to leave is another question.

    Leave a comment:


  • SDL
    replied
    Originally posted by EvanAparra
    Pedro didnt want to leave? Then he should have taken the deal that was offered to him.
    My error (try to concentrate when you have two cats loudly fighting in the next room).

    What I MEANT to say was that Nomar wanted to stay, unlike Pedro, Clemens and Boggs.

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  • EvanAparra
    replied
    Pedro didnt want to leave? Then he should have taken the deal that was offered to him.

    Leave a comment:


  • SDL
    replied
    Originally posted by EvanAparra
    He might not have spent enough time, but wasnt good enough?? He was plenty good when he was here.
    I'd retire #5 before 21 and 45....unlike Nomar, they didn't want to leave....

    Leave a comment:


  • EvanAparra
    replied
    Originally posted by PhilWings24
    Maybe Pedro and Clemens, but nomar just plain wasn't good enough to receive the honor, and didn't spend enough time with the team (pedro's ridiculous effectiveness makes his short tenure less of an issue with me)
    He might not have spent enough time, but wasnt good enough?? He was plenty good when he was here.

    Leave a comment:


  • PhilWings24
    replied
    Originally posted by BoSox Rule
    Nomar, Pedro, and Clemens should be retired.
    Maybe Pedro and Clemens, but nomar just plain wasn't good enough to receive the honor, and didn't spend enough time with the team (pedro's ridiculous effectiveness makes his short tenure less of an issue with me)

    Leave a comment:


  • SDL
    replied
    To hell with Cooperstown. #14 SHOULD be retired for Jim Ed.

    Retire #7 for Dom with the provision that Nixon can keep it...kind of like when MLB retired #42 with the provision that active players wearing it could keep it (Mo Vaughn). Of course, Nixon could always show some class and pull a Ray Bourque (Bruins fans know what I mean).

    Retire #6 for Pesky AND Petrocelli. Have a special day to honor both guys. Hey, if the Celtics could retire #18 for both Loscutoff and Cowens...

    Tony C's #25. I have been screaming this for years...more out of respect than anything else. Assuming he never got beaned, imagine his overall numbers. I know a lot of other people that agree with me.

    #43 for Eckersley. If they could bend the rules like they did when they retired #27 for Fisk, they could do the same for The Eck. Isn't NESN partially owned by the Sox?

    #23 for El Tiante. I know it won't happen, but I can dream, can't I?

    Leave a comment:


  • EvanAparra
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    I'm saying that when I think of Grove and Foxx, I think of them as Oakland Athletics much more than I think of them as Red Sox, and as such, don't believe retiring their numbers as Red Sox would be appropriate. Maybe I can concede Foxx, but definitely not Grove. Back when Grove was pitching, pitchers would regularly pitch 250-300 innings a year, so pitching under 200 back then was a sign of an off and/or injury plagued year. It's also a sign of dominance. With the Red Sox, Grove was a 190 inning pitcher. With the Athletics, Grove was 280 inning pitcher. That's a huge difference and reflects how much more dominant and valuable Grove was while with the Athletics than with the Red Sox.

    Now that sad thing with both players is that the A's haven't done anything to acknowledge them (or others like Simmons, Cochrane, Collins, Baker, Plank, Waddell). The Dodgers and Giants honor the greats that played for them in New York, but the A's have left their greats without a team.
    I wouldnt retire their numbers either, just so were on the same page.

    Leave a comment:

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