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Terry Francona sucks!!!!!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by rwolfe09
    Well, Tavarez has had more "decent" outings but definately..Tavarez is on the shortest least with the organization. I mean Foulke didn't do that bad for not pitching for awhile but man he looked confused. And I really think he doesn't wanna pitch in Boston.

    Also..if you put Papelbon in the 7th..then you wont have him for a few days. And Terry doesn't keep people like Hansen to get their friendships better, he does it so they can get better at playing that certain situation. Like with runners on the corners or "ducks on the pond" he'd stick with a younger pitcher so he can get experience. It's that Terry wants his bullpen to be experienced in as many situations as possible.

    I understand what you're saying about wanting to get them the experience but you can't do it at the expense of the game. Especially when you are smack in the middle of the playoff hunt. The games are far more important than getting some kids a little experience.

    Francona is a lame duck manager just like Dusty Baker is for the Cubs. They both dont know what the h*ll they're doing.

    I totally agree that they should have brought Paps in for that situation too. It makes total sense. Screw the conventional thinking.
    Tinker, Evers, Chance & Steinfeldt: The nucleus of our elite World Series teams!!!!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mattingly
      If y'all can ignore the uniform of the team I root for, I'll gladly discuss this with you.

      You can use your closer in that sitaution. Some have advocated this, as the closer is your best relief pitcher. I think it's more than just having a set role. At times, the most trying time may occur in the 6th inning.

      How long would it take Papelbon to warm up? Does he do any specific pre-game exercises always, like stretching, throwing a ball or whatever? If he doesn't have the opportunity to do that, then his use may be wasted.

      I haven't any idea whether Timlin or Foulke was more rested (recently, not just Foulke's recent return off the DL). I'm not too sure I'd have put Foulke in that situation so early anyway.

      If anything, since Timlin had closed last season, he may have been your best option, even if the results didn't demonstrate this. I generally feel that if it's in the 7th, a setup man may be the likeliest option, and preferably one who's gotten some saves in the past. That way, if the closer is overused, even in a 1-run game, the setup guy can still close the game in the 9th.
      If I understand your post, you are trying to say to bring in Papelbon in the sixth/seventh inning to close a game? That would be an overkill. If this happens very often, he will be burned up very soon. That would be a waste of his talents.

      Just my two cents.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by rwolfe09
        Also..if you put Papelbon in the 7th..then you wont have him for a few days.
        I'm not saying that Papelbon should have been sent out in the 7th to close the game; what I'm wondering is what's the difference if he gets the outs in the 7th (when Hansen pitched into a major jam) or the 9th. Like I said before, your best relief pitcher should be used when you need him the most, regardless of whether or not he'll earn a "save" from it.
        "Too many pitchers, that's all, there are just too many pitchers Ten or twelve on a team. Don't see how any of them get enough work. Four starting pitchers and one relief man ought to be enough. Pitch 'em every three days and you'd find they'd get control and good, strong arms."

        -Cy Young

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Sean Casey
          I'm not saying that Papelbon should have been sent out in the 7th to close the game; what I'm wondering is what's the difference if he gets the outs in the 7th (when Hansen pitched into a major jam) or the 9th. Like I said before, your best relief pitcher should be used when you need him the most, regardless of whether or not he'll earn a "save" from it.
          theoretically yes. but a good portion of it is mentality. put a "closer" (and thats what Paps is right now) into a situation that hes not used to (6th/7th inning) and who knows what happens.

          ballplayers are creatures of habits and putting your closer in that situation isnt ideal since some of your "setup men" arent best equipped at trying to slam the door in the 9th.

          ideally, your two best setup men (like howry and eyre for the cubs) are more than good enough to get you out of jams. thats why you pay pretty big bucks for your top setup men.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Yankeebiscuitfan
            If I understand your post, you are trying to say to bring in Papelbon in the sixth/seventh inning to close a game? That would be an overkill. If this happens very often, he will be burned up very soon. That would be a waste of his talents.

            Just my two cents.
            I seemed to have been hedging back & forth between yes and no. Right now, if you have a top setup man who's closed games, that may be your best bet. If your setupman can't do the "fireman's" work in the 6th or 7th inning, then you may need to find a new one and demote him to middle relief.
            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
            Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
            THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
            Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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            • #21
              as anti-tito as i am, and as much as i would've liked to seen Paps in the 7th there, i can't hold it against the Dugout Potato (tito) for not giving him the call.

              i mean, the mans a potato, and calling on Paps there is a startlingly good move by any manager in baseball. even torre-- who is not a potato, but a real life human being and a rather impressive one at that-- would get some eyebrow raises if he made that move.

              its ballsy, and i'd be fine with a manager that wasn't ballsy, so long as he doesn't blow 5 games for every 1 he saves.

              so he should've brought in paps there, but if they get out of that jam with timlin, its not even an afterthough; it doesn't occur to anyone to question it. it would've been a really, really nice move to bring him in there
              Gelatin Fernandalism

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              • #22
                Tito made the right calls tonight, but they still wound up with the loss. This REALLY sucks. I'm bummin' right now, all the yankee fans at my work are lovin this. The RedSox need to go on a SERIOUS winning streak if they are going to get to the postseason. I'm going over this.
                Back to being underdogs

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                • #23
                  I disagree. He should have brought out Paps to start the 8th. I mean, when he had to come in with the bases loaded and no out in the 8th, he pitched two innings anyway. The Sox needed to win that game -- and with Papelbon starting the 8th, their probablity of winning would have been much higher. A bad decision. Torre is known for using Rivera for the 2-inning save.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by ssbguyincognito
                    I disagree. He should have brought out Paps to start the 8th. I mean, when he had to come in with the bases loaded and no out in the 8th, he pitched two innings anyway. The Sox needed to win that game -- and with Papelbon starting the 8th, their probablity of winning would have been much higher. A bad decision. Torre is known for using Rivera for the 2-inning save.
                    I guess you're right, since he brought in Timlin (Mr. backstabber) and he picked up right where he left off on friday night. This is a sad, sad time for sox fans.
                    Back to being underdogs

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                    • #25
                      Papelbon should have been brought in to start the 9th. That was Terry's first big mistake, but he also should not have had Mirabelli bat with 2 out and the bases loaded in the 9th. As much as I like Mirabelli, Josh Beckett would have been a better choice. (okay, maybe not Beckett, but where were Gonzalez and Lopez?)
                      "Too many pitchers, that's all, there are just too many pitchers Ten or twelve on a team. Don't see how any of them get enough work. Four starting pitchers and one relief man ought to be enough. Pitch 'em every three days and you'd find they'd get control and good, strong arms."

                      -Cy Young

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                      • #26
                        Lopez stink.

                        Gonzalez is hurt at the moment, but consider how bad he was struggling, he's not much of an upgrade compare to Mirabelli.

                        I disagree. He should have brought out Paps to start the 8th. I mean, when he had to come in with the bases loaded and no out in the 8th, he pitched two innings anyway. The Sox needed to win that game -- and with Papelbon starting the 8th, their probablity of winning would have been much higher. A bad decision. Torre is known for using Rivera for the 2-inning save.
                        Torre is known for using Rivera for the 2-inning save matter because why? Timlin the setup man, he blew with the first two hitters, Papelbon should have been brought into the game after, but Lopez, a player that just came up, was brought in. That's was the most questionable move he did yesterday.

                        Also, Torre used Rivera for the 2-inning save a lot previously, because nobody else was dependable in the Yankee bullpen at that time, unlike this year, where he's got Proctor and many more solid relief pitchers.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sean Casey
                          Papelbon should have been brought in to start the 9th. That was Terry's first big mistake, but he also should not have had Mirabelli bat with 2 out and the bases loaded in the 9th. As much as I like Mirabelli, Josh Beckett would have been a better choice. (okay, maybe not Beckett, but where were Gonzalez and Lopez?)
                          Papelbon should've been brought in to start the 9th or the 8th? I presume you'd meant the 8th, but want to make sure of this. If the 8th inning, I'd definitely agree, as Paps was very fresh after not being used in the first 3 games.

                          As to Torre using Rivera for 2-inning saves, that's been done quite a lot. However, in the 2nd inning of work, he's often not as good. That's why a few of us cross our fingers.

                          If Posada had not hit the "insurance" HR, with Ortiz at the plate and a man on base, he could've smacked the game-winning longball. Instead, his HR attempt--which would've brought Boston within a run--fell short to end the game.
                          Last edited by Mattingly; 08-21-2006, 03:16 PM.
                          Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                          Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                          THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                          Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sean Casey
                            Papelbon should have been brought in to start the 9th. That was Terry's first big mistake, but he also should not have had Mirabelli bat with 2 out and the bases loaded in the 9th. As much as I like Mirabelli, Josh Beckett would have been a better choice. (okay, maybe not Beckett, but where were Gonzalez and Lopez?)
                            isnt gonzo hurt?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Kdub Red Sox Fan 4Life
                              Speaking of Timlin, here's what Bill Simmons said the other day in an article on espn.com regarding the most dependable reliever in recent Sox history.

                              "the Red Sox allowing 40-year-old Mike Timlin to pitch in the WBC (he's a walking corpse now);"

                              Now I see just how right he is.h

                              I now have as much faith in Timlin as I do in Tavarez or Seanez. ... sad indeed.
                              Please no Bill simmons quotes, i cant stand him. Mr. "I wont complain about the Red Sox for the next 5 years after this WS" then he bashes Theo for not signing Pedro a couple months later.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mattingly
                                Papelbon should've been brought in to start the 9th or the 8th?
                                I meant to say 8th inning...that's what I get for not proofreading.
                                "Too many pitchers, that's all, there are just too many pitchers Ten or twelve on a team. Don't see how any of them get enough work. Four starting pitchers and one relief man ought to be enough. Pitch 'em every three days and you'd find they'd get control and good, strong arms."

                                -Cy Young

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