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Running out of time - Jim Rice (HoF ballot)

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  • #16
    I think Rice will have a good chance next year given a weak incoming class and the sentimental support he'll get as his time on the ballot runs out. But I don't think he'll quite get there.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by dl4060
      If he is at fault extra for a groundout with runners on, then he should be given extra credit for a basehit with runners on. This is the problem with many of the statheads who put Rice down, they want it both ways. On the one side they want to say that players should not be given much credit for RBI, but on the other side they should be reamed for a double play. Their is no logical defense for this, you either take away from Rice for his dp's but give him huge credit for his rbi, or you do neither. It's really pretty simple.
      You are the one who does not understand. Of course, he is at extra fault for hitting into double plays. He caused two outs, the second most critical component of the game. He has been given more than ample credit for his RBI's. If he wasn't there would be nothing to discuss. Nobody is arguing those runners miraculously scored. One thing a stathead can tell you that you might want to learn is that it is easier to get lots of rbi's when there are runners on base than when they are not.
      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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      • #18
        Originally posted by KCGHOST
        You are the one who does not understand. Of course, he is at extra fault for hitting into double plays. He caused two outs, the second most critical component of the game. He has been given more than ample credit for his RBI's. If he wasn't there would be nothing to discuss. Nobody is arguing those runners miraculously scored. One thing a stathead can tell you that you might want to learn is that it is easier to get lots of rbi's when there are runners on base than when they are not.
        But the basic point is unexceptionable, isn't it? GIDP rate is very much dependent on lineup position and teammate's performance, as are RBI. Similarly, no one nowadays considers defensive DP rate as an accurate index of defensive value without context: Even though the 1950 Philadelphia A's got over 200 DP's, no one thinks that means Joost and Hitchcock were all-time great middle infielders, even though they were gaining their team two outs on every one. They think it means A's pitchers let a lot of guys get on base.

        I think GIDP are treated differently from RBI and defensive DP because some version of runs-created per out is the common currency for evaluating batters, and it's going to get very messy if you start pro-rating GIDP as a function of runners on base and trying to unload the extra fractions of an out on someone. RBI don't pose that problem, and defensive statistics have much more slack in the line, so the problem doesn't stand out.
        The ball once struck off,
        Away flies the boy
        To the next destin'd post,
        And then home with joy.
        --Anonymous, 1744

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        • #19
          As much as lineup factors into this, at the heart of matter, both DPs and RBI are reflection on the batter's skill. With a runner on base, the batter will want to do something that advances or scores the runner, while the last thing a batter will want to do with a runner on base is to hit into a double play - a batter should try his best to avoid doing so. Thus, a batter that is hitting into a lot of DPs, as Rice did, even when you factor in lineup position, is doing something wrong and is hurting the team, and probably shouldn't be batting in the lineup where he is.

          Anyway, the DP issue is not why I don't support Rice, it's really the home/away splits and mostly one dimensional aspect of his game that he comes up short for me.

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          • #20
            Blyleven and (I know this will piss some of you off) Gossage need to get in before Jim Rice...however if he was in I wouldn't complain. Jayson Stark said that "in his prime pitchers would rather see Jack the Ripper on their doorstep than Jim Rice coming up to bat", so the fear factor of Rice was extraordinary



            P.S. Since Jack the Ripper killed hookers why would he pose a threat to major league pitchers?
            "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

            "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

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