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  • #46
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    Intent doesn't always matter - what matters are that there are connotations to Ortiz's statement that he perhaps doesn't realize and that can actually affect people. Under your logic, it would be ok for me to call you any name I want, no matter how vile or vicious, but if I don't mean it in a bad way, it doesn't matter, even if you're offended? Basically, the winningtheweapon theory seems to be that it's ok to spew ignorance when you're ignorant of the fact that it's ignorant, and the people who might be offended should just get over it? That seems like a lot of ignorance to me.

    On a related note, I'm done with this conversation.
    No, not intent, but context. Like if I was black and someone called me an "N" no matter if they meant it in a derogatory sense or not (which the latter doesn't make any sense, but that's en excuse you get some of the time for its usage) it would be considered derogatory and condescending and I would take offense. What I meant by the hyperbolic statement was if someone makes an overexaggeration to someone making a joke such as "all Americans look alike, they're all fat," which is pretty much in the same category as saying all Japanese people look alike. If they take that statement and run with it as that person being anti-American, and all of this other nonsense. If that takes place then yes for a statement such as that you need to be called out on your overexaggerations. Hell, I hear that joke made everyday and I'm skinny. Do you see me crying about how these people are anti-American and how they just don't understand? It's a joke. A joke is a joke. And when no one uses any derogatory contexts (and there is a one for Asians which Ortiz didn't use) then I really don't see the big deal. What are we suppose to be all firm and serious all the time?

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    • #47
      Originally posted by winningtheweapon
      No, not intent, but context. Like if I was black and someone called me an "N" no matter if they meant it in a derogatory sense or not (which the latter doesn't make any sense, but that's en excuse you get some of the time for its usage) it would be considered derogatory and condescending and I would take offense. What I meant by the hyperbolic statement was if someone makes an overexaggeration to someone making a joke such as "all Americans look alike, they're all fat," which is pretty much in the same category as saying all Japanese people look alike. If they take that statement and run with it as that person being anti-American, and all of this other nonsense. If that takes place then yes for a statement such as that you need to be called out on your overexaggerations. Hell, I hear that joke made everyday and I'm skinny. Do you see me crying about how these people are anti-American and how they just don't understand? It's a joke. A joke is a joke. And when no one uses any derogatory contexts (and there is a one for Asians which Ortiz didn't use) then I really don't see the big deal. What are we suppose to be all firm and serious all the time?
      The point you're missing is that perhaps the people that are the subject of the joke might not think is funny and might be offended. There are negative connotations in a statement such as "they all look alike" when referring to Asian people, due to historically degrading characterizations of Asian people perpetrated by the western world, particularly in the 19th and early 20th centuries. So while it might be a joke to you, it might not be so funny to others, who, due to history, have a much different perception on what that kind of statement means it might not take so kindly to it being used so flippantly. A good example happened not too long ago when Rosie O'Donnell, in her infinite wisdom, decided to make a stereotypical portrayal of how Chinese people talk on her tv show. She said she meant it as a joke and that she was unaware that the imitation was offensive, but nevertheless, she drew a lot of criticism because people were offended by her characterization. Were they wrong to be offended because she was just joking? Often, ignorance can be just as bad as intent.

      You know what, I have an experiment for you to try. Come down here to NYC, get on the subway, and just starting saying out loud, as jovially as you can, "all members of X group of people look alike." Seriously. Pick whatever group you want, I suggest you try a few, and report back what kind of reaction you get to your "joke." Tell us if others care, particularly members of the groups you are classifying, that you meant to be joking.
      Last edited by DoubleX; 02-26-2007, 11:26 AM.

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      • #48
        While Ortiz's comment just makes him look even more unintelligent than he already is, I should bring up an experience I had working on a Japanese TV show a while back.

        There is a show called "The World's Astonishing News" that shoots in SF and Baltimore, but is only shown in Japan. It takes and recreates news stories from throughout history, for example some of the episodes I have worked on were The finger in the chili at Dennys and the Zodiac Killer. ANYWAY I shot like 3 episodes in a row, playing a variety of characters and I was quite surprised they kept calling me back, because it seemed like it would mess up continuity, seeing me play like 3 different people in 1 episode. I bought this up to the director and his exact words were: "Oh no worry....you all look the same to us, haha".

        I mean this was between 2 people and not at a press conference so its a little less wrong, but bottom line is, white people (and probably black and dominicans etc) all look the same to Japanese people, Im sure they werent hurt by Ortiz's public comment.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by DoubleX
          The point you're missing is that perhaps the people that are the subject of the joke might not think is funny and might be offended. There are negative connotations in a statement such as "they all look alike" when referring to Asian people, due to historically degrading characterizations of Asian people perpetrated by the western world, particularly in the 19th and early 20th centuries. So while it might be a joke to you, it might not be so funny to others, who, due to history, have a much different perception on what that kind of statement means it might not take so kindly to it being used so flippantly. A good example happened not too long ago when Rosie O'Donnell, in her infinite wisdom, decided to make a stereotypical portrayal of how Chinese people talk on her tv show. She said she meant it as a joke and that she was unaware that the imitation was offensive, but nevertheless, she drew a lot of criticism because people were offended by her characterization. Were they wrong to be offended because she was just joking? Often, ignorance can be just as bad as intent.

          You know what, I have an experiment for you to try. Come down here to NYC, get on the subway, and just starting saying out loud, as jovially as you can, "all members of X group of people look alike." Seriously. Pick whatever group you want, I suggest you try a few, and report back what kind of reaction you get to your "joke." Tell us if others care, particularly members of the groups you are classifying, that you meant to be joking.
          What Rosie did is more ignorant than what Ortiz stated. Making fun of how a language sounds is just being artless and the same could be joked about on the English language. However, where in his statements did Ortiz attack the language, the culture, the individuality of the people? You're not being very accurate with your juxtapositions.


          And I like how your experiment will assume a result of coercing to make me see the light. Yeah, that's the way to solve misconstruing arguments. :noidea

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          • #50
            Originally posted by winningtheweapon
            What Rosie did is more ignorant than what Ortiz stated. Making fun of how a language sounds is just being artless and the same could be joked about on the English language. However, where in his statements did Ortiz attack the language, the culture, the individuality of the people? You're not being very accurate with your juxtapositions.


            And I like how your experiment will assume a result of coercing to make me see the light. Yeah, that's the way to solve misconstruing arguments. :noidea
            You're still missing the point. I was saying, in general, it is possible for people on the other side of comment to be offended, even if the speaker did not mean it in such a way. You seem to be missing the point that not every is going to have the same take on something as you or David Ortiz or whomever. What is seemingly innocuous to you, could be hurtful to someone else, and thus I think it's wrong for you dismiss out of hand that possibility in this situation. My point is, who are you to tell other people, who might have very good cause to interpret Ortiz's comments differently than you, in ways you apparently cannot even begin to fathom or empathize with, that they shouldn't be offended?

            Anyway, this is going anyplace, so let's drop it. Though I am serious about the subway experiment. I'm not assuming any outcome, I seriously want you to try it and see what happens. I'm very curious. I want to see what happens when you get on the NYC subway, among an extremely diverse and cosmopolitan group of people, and say something aloud, in obvious jest, that would tend to lump a group of people together. I would really like to see what kind of reaction you'd get, if any.
            Last edited by DoubleX; 02-26-2007, 12:07 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by DoubleX
              You're still missing the point. I was saying, in general, it is possible for people on the other side of comment to be offended, even if the speaker did not mean it in such a way. You seem to be missing the point that not every is going to have the same take on something as you or David Ortiz or whomever. What is seemingly innocuous to you, could be hurtful to someone else, and thus I think it's wrong for you dismiss out of hand that possibility in this situation. My point is, who are you to tell other people, who might have very good cause to interpret Ortiz's comments differently than you, in ways you apparently cannot even begin to fathom or empathize with, that they shouldn't be offended?

              Anyway, this is going anyplace, so let's drop it. Though I am serious about the subway experiment. I'm not assuming any outcome, I seriously want you to try it and see what happens. I'm very curious. I want to see what happens when you get on the NYC subway, among an extremely diverse and cosmopolitan group of people, and say something aloud, in obvious jest, that would tend to lump a group of people together. I would really like to see what kind of reaction you'd get, if any.

              If you read Rose's ancedote you'd see that the Japanese consider all Westerners to look alike. So it's really a contradiction on their part if they're so offended by it. The same goes for blacks who find offense in a white person calling him an "N" yet they turn around and call each other "N's". I really can't sympathize if this is the way it's going to go. Especially, if Ortiz's statement to begin with was not derogatory in any sense.

              And what would be the point of the subway experiment? Of course, there's going to be a few people who have anger problems that will get up and coerce me to make me learn the consequences of saying such a thing in jest, but does it prove a point? Does it set a standard? No, it doesn't, so the experiment is pointless.


              Besides, the fact that we're still conciously circumspect about comments about race shows what a rebuff it is for our society to be united as a whole. We're all the same species so lets leave it at that. We categorized race in our own mind, and the fact that we can't get over this shows how utterly ignorant we still are.
              Last edited by winningtheweapon; 02-26-2007, 12:50 PM.

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              • #52
                Are We There Yet?

                OK, Double X and winningtheweapon, we all get the idea that different people will interpret the same piece of information differently, based on various factors. I hope the discussion is reaching some kind of conclusion here.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by DickZ
                  OK, Double X and winningtheweapon, we all get the idea that different people will interpret the same piece of information differently, based on various factors. I hope the discussion is reaching some kind of conclusion here.

                  I agree, DickZ (how's it going, by the way? ).

                  I'm getting that "closed thread" feeling. It seems to me that this one has more than satisfied its original intent. Any thoughts?
                  "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by SoxSon
                    I agree, DickZ (how's it going, by the way? ).

                    I'm getting that "closed thread" feeling. It seems to me that this one has more than satisfied its original intent. Any thoughts?
                    Please. I knew this thread would require closing the moment I saw it.
                    Originally posted by Domenic
                    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Westlake
                      Please. I knew this thread would require closing the moment I saw it.

                      I only needed one voice to sway me enough.
                      Closed.
                      "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

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