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when will the redsox trade manny????

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  • DoubleX
    replied
    The argument for Tejada is of course, that not only is he a great hitter, but he's a great hitter as a SS, which adds a lot of value to his game. Interestingly though, Tejada's careers OPS+ is only 112, and his career high was last year at 133 (before that, he only twice exceeded 120). For a player that hits like Tejada, you would expect a much higher OPS+, something at least around 130, if not around 140. How many people would think that Jeff Kent is the better hitter? Well by OPS+, he is the much better hitter (career OPS+ of 126, 6 seasons over 130, and career high of 165). I'm started to think that Tejada's hitting is kind of done with smoke and mirrors, and if his OPS+ is this low when he is putting up superficially nice numbers, it doesn't bode well for the long-term.

    My basic point is that I think I'd rather have Manny. Sure he can be a lummox in the field and on the bases, but he is the best hitter in the AL over the past decade, and perhaps in all of baseball during that stretch. In comarison to Tejada, Manny's career OPS+ is 156 with a career high of 190. That's a HUGE difference, and more than makes up for Tejada's edge in fielding.

    Additionally, believe it or not, it's probably easier to find a SS with an OPS+ comparable to Tejada's 112 than it would be to find a LFer with Manny's 156.

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  • The Big C
    replied
    Originally posted by MudvilleMike
    I'm sorry you don't understand the numbers and undervalue defense. I've simply given up trying to explain to people that you can't stick 9 corner outfielders and first basemen on the field at the same time, especially wretched fielding ones.

    This argument is moot since the Orioles aren't dumb enough to trade Tejada for Manny. We can only dream, but it's highly unlikely.
    And that is why they won't let just anyone be general manager.

    Nobody is talking about putting a Manny clone at every position in the field. But take a look at the 2005 win shares numbers for each of them.
    M Ramirez BOS OF Offensive:30.9, Defensive:2.9, Total:34
    M Tejada BAL SS Offensive:20.0, Defensive:6.1, Total:26

    As you can see, Miguel is worth more than Manny defensively, but Manny is WAY ahead in hitting and overall. Manny > Tejada

    Leave a comment:


  • Evangelion
    replied
    Oh, I understand. I think you're over-estimating Tejada's value. I'm sorry you don't understand that Manny's number show he's better than Tejada. Want to argue about numbers? I think fact will prove you wrong every time.

    For all the complain about Manny's defense, it's really not as harmful as some people like to make it out to be. Oddly, you don't understand that replacing Manny would have been far more diffcult than finding a SS, which we did by picking up a good fielding SS in Gonzalez. If you happen to take the time to look at OF out in FA market, replacing Manny would have been extremely diffcult.

    If our defense was made up of a bunch of poor fielders, then what you saying holds some water, but since our defense is pretty good outside of Manny. I really don't understand why you think Tejada's the better player than Manny. Sorry, I don't undervalue defense, but I also don't vastly over-estimate it's value.

    If this argument was moot, you won't have quoted me. Nobody dreaming. Basically everyone happy we kept Manny since he's the better player at this moment and just about everyone knows, maybe except for you and a few other people.

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  • MudvilleMike
    replied
    Originally posted by Evangelion
    Tejada is not a lot better than Manny, unless you want Tejada's defense to play a major role in decide that Tejada a lot better than Manny.

    Numbers speak for themselves and Manny the more productive hitter than Tejada. Manny's consistent numbers can't be question at this point. Like I said in another topic, posting a batting average under 300. mark is bad for Manny. Manny post a lot more walks, better OBP, batting average, HR, RBI and basically in every offensive category, Manny's better than Tejada.

    Manny better than Tejada at this point, even if you consider Tejada's defense.
    I'm sorry you don't understand the numbers and undervalue defense. I've simply given up trying to explain to people that you can't stick 9 corner outfielders and first basemen on the field at the same time, especially wretched fielding ones.

    This argument is moot since the Orioles aren't dumb enough to trade Tejada for Manny. We can only dream, but it's highly unlikely.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheKingofKings
    replied
    Hey guys i never said they SHOULD trade manny i was just opting the possibilities.This being said, every year manny comes through with this ''trade me'' kind of stupidity but after all , stays in Boston and is still productive.

    Leave a comment:


  • RobertHConner
    replied
    Originally posted by RichardLikeWhoa
    if we get rid of manny we need some super trade like:

    Vladimir G. = Manny

    Paul Konerko = Manny

    Pujols = Manny

    Tejada = Manny

    i hate saying this one...but...

    A-Rod = Manny
    Manny is a clutch hitter. That means A-Rod is not fair value. Vlad is the only thing close to Manny here. He (Manny) has proven that he can play while unhappy. He is a World Series MVP. No one on this list besides Konerko has even won a title. Manny should be kept unless he starts showing up in LF with a pipe & no pants!

    Leave a comment:


  • Evangelion
    replied
    Tejada is not a lot better than Manny, unless you want Tejada's defense to play a major role in decide that Tejada a lot better than Manny.

    Numbers speak for themselves and Manny the more productive hitter than Tejada. Manny's consistent numbers can't be question at this point. Like I said in another topic, posting a batting average under 300. mark is bad for Manny. Manny post a lot more walks, better OBP, batting average, HR, RBI and basically in every offensive category, Manny's better than Tejada.

    Manny better than Tejada at this point, even if you consider Tejada's defense.

    Leave a comment:


  • MudvilleMike
    replied
    Originally posted by The Big C
    Let me help you.

    Vladimir G. = Manny

    Paul Konerko < Manny

    Pujols > Manny

    Tejada < Manny

    A-Rod > Manny (if A-Rod hit in Fenway instead of Yankee Stadium... scary thought)


    That being said, Manny is not going anywhere, and that is the way it should be.
    Tejada is a lot better than Manny, but I agree that Manny should stay in Boston.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Big C
    replied
    I'd much rather have Manny than Tejada. Positional adjustments or no positional adjustments, Manny is just better.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheKingofKings
    replied
    The only way the sox will trade manny is for somebody with equal talent , the prime candidate is of course miguel tejada.

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by pesky6
    Good points, XX, but there's one thing that Manny has in the post that ARod doesn't.

    A World Series MVP trophy.
    That's very true, and until A-Rod gets one, he'll have to deal with the criticism's about his postseason hitting (even if not supported by statistics).

    Getting back to the main point of the thread, I do think the Sox would be crazy to trade Manny. Trading Manny will devalue Ortiz, since I think the two thrive off having the other in the lineup (I think this is particularly true for Ortiz). You have to keep that one-two punch together because that's not something that can easily be replaced.

    Leave a comment:


  • pesky6
    replied
    Good points, XX, but there's one thing that Manny has in the post that ARod doesn't.

    A World Series MVP trophy.

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Rocket21fan
    Don't mistake regular season numbers for equality.
    The only ones on that list that really compare on that list are Pujols and maybe Vlad.
    And I don't know about you guys, but, I like most of Mannys quirks,(accept the not running down the baseline, I hate that,) how funny is it him stopping to pee inside the green monster.
    Since your post was titled "Don't Mistake A-Rod for Manny" and then imply postseason hitting makes A-Rod inferior to the other three, well to that I point to this:

    Career Postseason BA
    Rodriguez: .305
    Manny: .257

    Career Postseason OPS
    Rodriguez: 0.927
    Manny: 0.845

    Not to mention A-Rod put up these numbers as a SS and 3Bman, whereas Manny is a corner OFer, and A-Rod's advantage is actually bigger.

    As for Pujols and Guerrero being in the same class as Manny because of postseason hitting, Pujols has been very good in the postseason and much better than Manny (.336 BA, 1.048 OPS) whereas Guerrero has been awful (.180 BA, 0.481 OPS) but also in much fewer ABs than the other three.

    So I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this implication that postseason numbers put Ramirez on a higher level than the others.
    Last edited by DoubleX; 02-10-2006, 02:19 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yankeebiscuitfan
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by RichardLikeWhoa
    if we get rid of manny we need some super trade like:

    Vladimir G. = Manny

    Paul Konerko = Manny

    Pujols = Manny

    Tejada = Manny

    i hate saying this one...but...

    A-Rod = Manny
    I must say: those are many...

    Leave a comment:


  • Rocket21fan
    replied
    A-Rod is NOT Manny

    Don't mistake regular season numbers for equality.
    The only ones on that list that really compare on that list are Pujols and maybe Vlad.
    And I don't know about you guys, but, I like most of Mannys quirks,(accept the not running down the baseline, I hate that,) how funny is it him stopping to pee inside the green monster.

    Leave a comment:

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