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What to expect this year from Coco Crisp...

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Boston Boxer
    I think more is made of the CF in Fenway than it really is...RF has way more ground to cover.
    In that case, I'll discuss that, which seems slightly off-topic.

    Prior to Damon, who'd played CF there? How much CF experience did they have before coming to the Red Sox?
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    I meant best catching prospect.
    Who was higher rated? Kelly Shoppach or Dioneer Navarro?
    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
    Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
    THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
    Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Mattingly
      Who was higher rated? Kelly Shoppach or Dioneer Navarro?
      Shoppach. At the time, Navarro was still very young and raw and in the low minors, whereas Shoppach was further along.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mattingly
        In that case, I'll discuss that, which seems slightly off-topic.

        Prior to Damon, who'd played CF there? How much CF experience did they have before coming to the Red Sox?

        Who was higher rated? Kelly Shoppach or Dioneer Navarro?
        Here are the CF from my memory.
        Brady Anderson - Rookie
        Fred Lynn - Rookie and future great
        Ellis Burkes - Rookie
        D Lewis
        Lee Tinsley - more of a corner outfielder
        Billy Hatcher - Good center fielder

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by ElHalo
          What I don't get is why the Red Sox traded for him in the first place. Wasn't Kelly Schoppach a couple of years ago supposed to be the second coming of Carlton Fisk? Isn't Ande Marte supposed to be another Mike Schmidt? Why would you give up such once in a lifetime prospects for a run of the mill CF'er? Am I crazy, or wouldn't those two guys (not to mention Mota) be enough to land the Sox a CF like Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds? What am I missing?

          In response to your post, EH, and a lot of other posts along the same lines, I thought I'd throw out an unspoken truth that I haven't seen posted anywhere on BBF (though I may have missed it).
          Teams like Boston and New York can nearly always afford to trade away prospects, because those guys will come back. It's ugly, but true. If the guy turns out to be the next big thing, his payday will come from a team like Boston or New York. That's partly why we get what we can for him now, and check in on him later.
          Not the prettiest way to manage a ballclub, but it's reality, nonetheless.
          "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by DoubleX
            I meant best catching prospect.
            He was never considered the best catching prospect either. The only thing he was projected as was a solid major league player who will walk, hit his share of HR's, be a very good defender at catcher. Here is a list of BA's best catching prospects back to 2002 and where they place in the top 100.

            2005
            1. Joe Mauer, Twins
            32. Daric Barton, Athletics
            44. Brian McCann, Braves
            67. Jeff Mathis, Angels
            79. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
            81. Neil Walker, Pirates
            89. Russell Martin, Dodgers

            2004
            1. Joe Mauer, Twins
            22. Jeff Mathis, Angels
            35. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
            41. Dioner Navarro, Yankees
            78. Kelly Shoppach, Red Sox

            2003
            4. Joe Mauer, Twins
            16. Victor Martinez, Indians
            48. Jeff Mathis, Angels
            66. Justin Huber, Mets
            67. John Buck, Astros
            94. Jayson Werth, Blue Jays

            2002
            7. Joe Mauer, Twins
            36. Josh Phelps, Blue Jays
            41. J.R. House, Pirates
            43. John Buck, Astros
            70. Jayson Werth, Astros
            97. Victor Martinez, Indians

            And Baseball Prospectus (top 40 prospects list 2002-2004, top 50 in 2005)
            2005
            9. Daric Barton, Athletics
            41. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
            44. Brian McCann, Braves
            48. Josh Willingham

            2004
            1. Joe Mauer, Twins
            17. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
            18. Jeff Mathis, Angels
            30. Dioner Navarro, Yankees

            2003
            4. Victor Martinez, Indians
            9. Joe Mauer, Twins

            2002
            25. Josh Phelps, Blue Jays

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by BoSox Rule
              He was never considered the best catching prospect either. The only thing he was projected as was a solid major league player who will walk, hit his share of HR's, be a very good defender at catcher. Here is a list of BA's best catching prospects back to 2002 and where they place in the top 100.

              2005
              1. Joe Mauer, Twins
              32. Daric Barton, Athletics
              44. Brian McCann, Braves
              67. Jeff Mathis, Angels
              79. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
              81. Neil Walker, Pirates
              89. Russell Martin, Dodgers

              2004
              1. Joe Mauer, Twins
              22. Jeff Mathis, Angels
              35. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
              41. Dioner Navarro, Yankees
              78. Kelly Shoppach, Red Sox

              2003
              4. Joe Mauer, Twins
              16. Victor Martinez, Indians
              48. Jeff Mathis, Angels
              66. Justin Huber, Mets
              67. John Buck, Astros
              94. Jayson Werth, Blue Jays

              2002
              7. Joe Mauer, Twins
              36. Josh Phelps, Blue Jays
              41. J.R. House, Pirates
              43. John Buck, Astros
              70. Jayson Werth, Astros
              97. Victor Martinez, Indians

              And Baseball Prospectus (top 40 prospects list 2002-2004, top 50 in 2005)
              2005
              9. Daric Barton, Athletics
              41. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
              44. Brian McCann, Braves
              48. Josh Willingham

              2004
              1. Joe Mauer, Twins
              17. Guillermo Quiroz, Blue Jays
              18. Jeff Mathis, Angels
              30. Dioner Navarro, Yankees

              2003
              4. Victor Martinez, Indians
              9. Joe Mauer, Twins

              2002
              25. Josh Phelps, Blue Jays
              I totally forgot about the existence of Mauer. I kept forgetting that is ML break was delayed. Anywho, guess I was wrong, I was always under the impression that Shoppach was a blue-chipper and more highly regarded as Navarro. Oh well. Thanks for the info.

              Comment


              • #37
                Here are the CF from my memory.
                Brady Anderson - Rookie
                Fred Lynn - Rookie and future great
                Ellis Burkes - Rookie
                D Lewis
                Lee Tinsley - more of a corner outfielder
                Billy Hatcher - Good center fielder
                We also had Damon Buford out in CF.

                If the guy turns out to be the next big thing, his payday will come from a team like Boston or New York. That's partly why we get what we can for him now, and check in on him later.
                That only applies to the Yankees. The Red Sox and a few other teams spend a lot of cash, but the Yankees are still about 80$ a year ahead of most teams in MLB, including the Red Sox. I believe the Rangers, Angels, Giants and other big name teams are also spending about 100 plus million dollars a year.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Evangelion
                  That only applies to the Yankees. The Red Sox and a few other teams spend a lot of cash, but the Yankees are still about 80$ a year ahead of most teams in MLB, including the Red Sox. I believe the Rangers, Angels, Giants and other big name teams are also spending about 100 plus million dollars a year.

                  The rest of baseball would disagree with your first line there, Evangelion. I do, too. I'm under no delusion about how Boston fits into the market.

                  The Rangers only spent about 56 million last season on payroll (they are not big spenders by any means); the Giants spent 90. The "Big 3" from last season are the Yankees, Boston and the Mets, with the Angels trailing just after. The Red Sox spent 123.5 million dollars last season on payroll. Yes, Boston was 85 million dollars lower than the Yanks (no small change), but we were also 22 million higher than the next team on the list. Boston and New York both stand out here, clearly.
                  "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Yankees' payroll is still 8 million more than the Red Sox. To consider them in the same league as the Yankees is ridiculous. The Yankees are still in a league of their own. The difference between the Yankees' payroll compared to the Red Sox's payroll is still large. Never said the Red Sox were not big spenders. Just said you can't put them in the league of Yankee spending when the difference between their payroll is 80 million a year.

                    Though, we're getting closer. I think the Red Sox are being subjected to 2006 Luxury Tax, which I believe only the New York have been subjected to up to this point.

                    I said think, because I wasn't sure. I didn't check out the exact numbers for the bigger spenders. At the end of 2005, our payroll was 116,640,070. Most likely it's higher. Can't locate an up to date payroll list of MLB. The Mets, Angels and Phillies were other big spending teams of last year that could have been group together with us. Nonetheless, only Mets come close to being close to our payroll and even then they were still about 9 million behide at the end of 2005.

                    Point being, Boston and both New York teams do stand out. Nonetheless, the Angels were not that far behide Mets' payroll last year. The Mets were further behide Boston, but then Boston was around 80 million behide Yankees. Big difference there. No, we're not 22 million dollars higher to my knowledge. We're should be at least 10 plus million above the Mets currently, but that's still nothing compared to being 8 times as much of that total behide the Yankees.

                    Boston is a big market spender, but New York is a league of their own by far.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Evangelion
                      Yankees' payroll is still 8 million more than the Red Sox. To consider them in the same league as the Yankees is ridiculous. The Yankees are still in a league of their own. The difference between the Yankees' payroll compared to the Red Sox's payroll is still large. Never said the Red Sox were not big spenders. Just said you can't put them in the league of Yankee spending when the difference between their payroll is 80 million a year.

                      Though, we're getting closer. I think the Red Sox are being subjected to 2006 Luxury Tax, which I believe only the New York have been subjected to up to this point.

                      I said think, because I wasn't sure. I didn't check out the exact numbers for the bigger spenders. At the end of 2005, our payroll was 116,640,070. Most likely it's higher. Can't locate an up to date payroll list of MLB. The Mets, Angels and Phillies were other big spending teams of last year that could have been group together with us. Nonetheless, only Mets come close to being close to our payroll and even then they were still about 9 million behide at the end of 2005.

                      Point being, Boston and both New York teams do stand out. Nonetheless, the Angels were not that far behide Mets' payroll last year. The Mets were further behide Boston, but then Boston was around 80 million behide Yankees. Big difference there. No, we're not 22 million dollars higher to my knowledge. We're should be at least 10 plus million above the Mets currently, but that's still nothing compared to being 8 times as much of that total behide the Yankees.

                      Boston is a big market spender, but New York is a league of their own by far.

                      Hmm...I'm not sure why our numbers don't match up. Some of the figures you're quoting seem off to me.
                      Listen, I'm not trying to correct you. I have zero interest in that. But there are too many players and too few positions for one team to take in every worthy player out there (going back to the original point about prospects). NY is spending much more than anyone else, but they have a limited roster, so 8 million or 80 million, we're clearly second on that food chain. I'm not sure where the disagreement is here.
                      "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mattingly
                        Prior to Damon, who'd played CF there?
                        Red Sox CF since 1996 with at least 20 games played in CF:

                        Code:
                        Name		Year	G
                        Johnny Damon	2005	147
                        Johnny Damon	2004	148
                        Johnny Damon	2003	144
                        Johnny Damon	2002	151
                        Carl Everett	2001	84
                        Trot Nixon	2001	70
                        Darren Lewis	2001	21
                        Carl Everett	2000	126
                        Darren Lewis	2000	41
                        Darren Lewis	1999	88
                        Damon Buford	1999	82
                        Darren Lewis	1998	109
                        Damon Buford	1998	67
                        Darren Bragg	1997	118
                        Shane Mack	1997	43
                        Jesus Tavarez	1997	29
                        Lee Tinsley	1996	79
                        Darren Bragg	1996	47
                        Milt Cuyler	1996	30
                        Alex Cole	1996	24
                        Dwayne Hosey	1996	20

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          that is great Chaos, thanks

                          As you can see, we have had only one really good CF since 96...the others were servicable at best. So, i am not worried about Coco playing CF

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I think he will make a good impression with the fans and have a solid season. I think he is a good trade.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Coco should do well in Boston. Hes got a taylor made swing, like Damons, for Fenway. I think you'll see alot of triples. doubles, less singles and less homerums. However, more RBIs and a higher OPS.
                              The 2006 Boston Red Sox are better on paper then both the 2004 world championship team, and the 2005 team.
                              Predictions:
                              Josh Beckett wins 23 Games
                              Mike Lowell has a bounce back season
                              Kevin Youkillis will be exposed as a bench player, nothing more.
                              Curt Schilling will have his worst season, ever.
                              Coco Crisp will create more runs then Damon did in 2005.
                              Trot Nixon will be on the DL 3 times.
                              Keith Foulke will lose Closers job to Hanson by June.


                              And the Boston Red Sox will win 99 games

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Utter Chaos
                                Red Sox CF since 1996 with at least 20 games played in CF:

                                Code:
                                Name		Year	G
                                Johnny Damon	2005	147
                                Johnny Damon	2004	148
                                Johnny Damon	2003	144
                                Johnny Damon	2002	151
                                Carl Everett	2001	84
                                Trot Nixon	2001	70
                                Darren Lewis	2001	21
                                Carl Everett	2000	126
                                Darren Lewis	2000	41
                                Darren Lewis	1999	88
                                Damon Buford	1999	82
                                Darren Lewis	1998	109
                                Damon Buford	1998	67
                                Darren Bragg	1997	118
                                Shane Mack	1997	43
                                Jesus Tavarez	1997	29
                                Lee Tinsley	1996	79
                                Darren Bragg	1996	47
                                Milt Cuyler	1996	30
                                Alex Cole	1996	24
                                Dwayne Hosey	1996	20
                                Thanks. I was just too lazy to look that one up.
                                Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                                Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                                THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                                Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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