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Francona panicked by bringing Paps in the 8th.

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  • Francona panicked by bringing Paps in the 8th.

    What is he thinking? He is up 5.5 games and he managed like he was chasing the Yankees. First of all Okajima has been a nightmare lately, but still Paps in the 8th was a move of a worried manager.

    Yes I know if the Sox take game 1 they are up 6.5 and its pretty much over. I realize that. I just think that when you start doing things you havent done all year you send a message to your own team and to the competition. Especially now that the move backfired.

  • #2

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    • #3
      I kinda like the idea of bringing in your best reliever when it matters most. It didn't work in this instance, but I think the logic is sound. They've done this with Papelbon a few times in the past.

      And in this particular situation, I think things went bad so fast that they didn't have time to get anyone else ready in the pen. Papelbon was already warming in preparatin for the 9th innning.
      Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

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      • #4
        I agree that bringing in Papelbon for 6 outs was probably too much for Papelbon, but I have two counter points to that:

        1) The Yankees got to Papelbon in the 8th, not the 9th, meaning that it wasn't from being overworked in the game that got him. Papelbon is supposed to be shutdown for at least an inning, last night he wasn't. It shouldn't matter whether it's the 8th or the 9th, Papelbon should be effective for at least an inning no matter what inning it is.

        2) If Gagne came in and blew it, there would be probably be cries that Francona should have brought in Papelbon sooner.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
          I agree that bringing in Papelbon for 6 outs was probably too much for Papelbon, but I have two counter points to that:

          1) The Yankees got to Papelbon in the 8th, not the 9th, meaning that it wasn't from being overworked in the game that got him. Papelbon is supposed to be shutdown for at least an inning, last night he wasn't. It shouldn't matter whether it's the 8th or the 9th, Papelbon should be effective for at least an inning no matter what inning it is.

          2) If Gagne came in and blew it, there would be probably be cries that Francona should have brought in Papelbon sooner.
          I like the second point, but I thought Pap was clearly not ready to pitch when he was brought in. It happened so fast, I'm not sure the Sox could have done anything about it. I think the point of panic was actually the 7th when Okie was brought on to face Godzilla.

          So what was wrong with this move? First of all, this is game one of three game series. Why would you want Okie to come in and get four outs with a 5-run lead? If I'm Francona, I'm going to try to win this without going to my two best (and most overworked) relievers-- leave them fresh for Saturday and/or Sunday. There is no way I pull Lopez in that situation. Even if Matsui hits a home run there (a long shot, due to the lefty-lefty matchup), it's still a 3-run game with the bases empty and two more lefties coming up behind Godzilla. I'd still stick with Lopez in the hopes that he can finish the inning against a Giambi. Best case scenario though, Lopez gets Matsui to end the inning. Now, I bring Lopez back out to face the two lefties (Giambi and Cano) in the 8th. The odds are in my favor that it's two up and two down. Then I run out there pat him on the butt and hand the ball over to Gagne. Yes Gagne. Two outs in the 8th, facing the the #9 hitter. Again, I like my chances chances with Gagne-- if he gets the final out of the 8th, bring him back to try to shut the door in the 9th. Now I give Gagne very little rope to hang himself. At the first sign of weakness I'm bringing in someone else, preferably not Okie or Pap (Delcarmen maybe?).

          Of course if Gagne does not perform as you say, Tito is criticized. It's a lot easier to make decisions in hindsight h
          "I believe in the Church of Baseball. I tried all the major religions and most of the minor ones. I've worshipped Buddha, Allah, Brahma, Vishnu, Siva, trees, mushrooms and Isadora Duncan. I know things. For instance, there are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I learned that, I gave Jesus a chance." ~Ron Shelton, from Bull Durham

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          • #6
            He was in a lose lose situation. Papelbon is supposed to be a starter so six outs shouldn't be anything unusual, however the Yanks got to Papelbon, who is usually impossible to get too, so he didn't have any options.
            "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

            "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

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            • #7
              So its Francona's fault that neither Okajima or Papelbon could get 2 outs before giving up 6 runs?

              Whoever had "Boston Bullpen" in the "8th inning" with the "lousy pitching"...you win the game of Clue!
              Last edited by Macker; 09-15-2007, 11:58 AM. Reason: edited "sh*tty pitching"
              Originally posted by Domenic
              The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

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              • #8
                You don't worry about the 9th inning when the dam is about to burst. If Papelbon could have gotten a groundout and the two strikeouts as soon as he came in, the Red Sox would have still had a 7-4 lead. Though as it transpired last night, Papelbon gave up a single, double and another single before getting three straight outs.

                It's Okajima's job to get batters out, and he failed last night. It's not unreasonable for the manager to expect Okajima to do his job.

                Lastly, this would have been a big win for the Red Sox. It would have pushed the Yankees 6.5 out with a chance of only cutting the lead to 4.5 games by Monday morning. The Red Sox then could go 6-6 to finish the season and the Yankees would have to win 11 of 13 to win the division.

                The Yankees need to sweep to have a realistic chance at winning the division. If they lose one or two games, they will need a lot of help to win the division, not to mention the threat Detroit catching them for wild card.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                  I agree that bringing in Papelbon for 6 outs was probably too much for Papelbon, but I have two counter points to that:

                  1) The Yankees got to Papelbon in the 8th, not the 9th, meaning that it wasn't from being overworked in the game that got him. Papelbon is supposed to be shutdown for at least an inning, last night he wasn't. It shouldn't matter whether it's the 8th or the 9th, Papelbon should be effective for at least an inning no matter what inning it is.

                  2) If Gagne came in and blew it, there would be probably be cries that Francona should have brought in Papelbon sooner.
                  But waiting until the outcome is known is what makes second guessing so effective!! It was like all the screaming at Grady Little who left Pedro in "too long" in the 2003 ALCS. If he had taken Pedro out, and the reliever wound up doing what Pedro did instead, Little would have been blasted for taking out his ace in such a critical situation.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DickZ View Post
                    But waiting until the outcome is known is what makes second guessing so effective!! It was like all the screaming at Grady Little who left Pedro in "too long" in the 2003 ALCS. If he had taken Pedro out, and the reliever wound up doing what Pedro did instead, Little would have been blasted for taking out his ace in such a critical situation.
                    That's exactly right, it's often a lose/lose situation for the manager in close and late situations.

                    My personal belief both situations (2003 and Friday night) is that in 2003, Pedro, an all-time ace, is the guy you want on the mound for as long as possible, but expecting more than 7 innings from him was probably a stretch; and that on Friday night, there's nothing wrong with expecting two innings from your closer, who is one of the best in the game. If that decision is questioned, it's because Papelbon falters in the 2nd inning and thus shouldn't have pitched two innings. He faltered in his first inning of work, and his job is to be a shutdown pitcher for at least one inning. So I don't really question the move because Papelbon should have closed things down for at least the 8th on Friday.

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                    • #11
                      Francona did the sbsoute right thing in bringing in Pabelpon. He needed to stop the fire in the 8th and who better to use than his best reliefer?? The fact it didn't work is Pabelpon's fault not his. Asking him to go 6 outs is not the end of the world either nor is it known if he would have. Gagne could pitch the 9th (as he did).

                      This is why so many managers manage by the "book". Too many people carp at them when things don't work. Even if the fault lies with the players.

                      And you should realize that the Sox best goal is not just to win the division but knock the Yankees out of the playoffs.
                      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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