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  • Schilling May Be Out for the Season

    http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/b...7&pos=breaking

    If this is true Wakefield and Tavarez will have to be bigger parts of the rotation.
    "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

    "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

  • #2
    This is going to be interesting. Did Curt agree to not have the surgery when he signed the contract and now is going back on his word? Sounds like grounds for voiding his contract to me. Tough to lose your #3 starter before the friggin season even starts.

    In any case, I hope this means Clay starts the season in the rotation.
    Originally posted by Domenic
    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Westlake View Post
      This is going to be interesting. Did Curt agree to not have the surgery when he signed the contract and now is going back on his word? Sounds like grounds for voiding his contract to me. Tough to lose your #3 starter before the friggin season even starts.
      You're further along in pre-law than I am so I'm going to differ this to you.

      In any case, I hope this means Clay starts the season in the rotation.
      I don't see why he wouldn't all this means is that they might try to push him 180 innings, which isn't a very good idea.
      "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

      "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Westlake View Post
        This is going to be interesting. Did Curt agree to not have the surgery when he signed the contract and now is going back on his word? Sounds like grounds for voiding his contract to me. Tough to lose your #3 starter before the friggin season even starts.

        In any case, I hope this means Clay starts the season in the rotation.
        Probably not, innings limit you know. But it almost definitely means that Tavarez will get a chance to pitch his way out or the rotation again -- same deal as last time.

        Actually I wouldn't mind seeing them stretch Papelbon out as a starter again this year, partially to keep certain options open, and partly because in each of his 2 dominant years he was stretched out in spring training so it seems to be a winning combination with Pap!

        BTW -- if Schill is out for the season, that means he's probably done altogether.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Westlake View Post
          BTW -- if Schill is out for the season, that means he's probably done altogether.
          Well he is over 40...
          "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

          "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ChrisLDuncan View Post
            Well he is over 40...
            Yes, and he's already got a legit shot at the Hall of Fame, with good longevity numbers (3000+ K's, 200 wins, 3.46 career ERA) and some defining playoff moments including his heroics in 2001, plus the Sock, plus his domimant playoff pedigree (11-2 in the postseason with a 2.23 ERA).
            Last edited by Imgran; 02-07-2008, 11:35 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I was just saying that it's hard to expect a lot from pitchers over 40, it will be interesting to see which Ballot Curt gets in on.
              "he probably used some performance enhancing drugs so he could do a better job on his report...i hear they make you gain weight" - Dr. Zizmor

              "I thought it was interesting and yes a conversation piece. Next time I post a similar story I will close with the question "So, do you think either of them have used steroids?" so that I can make the topic truly relevant to discussions about today's game." - Eric Davis

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqul1GyK7-g

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Westlake View Post
                This is going to be interesting. Did Curt agree to not have the surgery when he signed the contract and now is going back on his word? Sounds like grounds for voiding his contract to me. Tough to lose your #3 starter before the friggin season even starts.

                In any case, I hope this means Clay starts the season in the rotation.
                There would likely have to be something in the contract addressing this situation in order to void it. The Sox are assumed to be knowledgeable and experienced in these kind of dealings, including the risks involved (such as players getting injured and requiring surgery) and thus it would be their own fault for not pushing to include a provision addressing this situation in the contract. The language in the contract (or lack of, as it might be here), will likely prevail. Look at the Yankees with Pavano - I'm sure the Yankees thought they were getting a lot more from Pavano than they have, but failing language in the contract addressing contingencies (such as repeated and questionable injuries) the team can't really do much. I don't know the circumstances of Schilling's contract or negotiations though, and that could change things. For instance, if he was aware of his injury and knew he could not perform but represented he could, then the Sox might have grounds to rescind the contract on bad faith by Schilling. But then again, he almost certainly went through a physical prior to signing, so the Sox either found him to be satisfactorily fit, or waived any findings to the contrary. There is likely something somewhere in the contract that the Sox will try to exploit as an out, but it will be tough.

                Anywho, this does create an interesting situation for the Sox. I would guess Buchholz would factor in more than the Sox had planned (though I'm sure they figured they'd be dealing with injuries at some point anyway). But there are also some decent starters left on the market, who won't be Schilling, but might be able to give some innings as a decent 4 or 5 starter. Some names out there (I'm not sure what the health is of all these guys):

                Kris Benson
                Bartolo Colon - Could be an interesting gamble, though I don't if he's healthy
                Josh Fogg
                Freddy Garcia - Another interesting gamble
                Livan Hernandez - Can't believe he's still out there. At the very least, he'll give you innings.
                Kyle Lohse
                Rodrigo Lopez
                Eric Milton
                Russ Ortiz
                Odalis Perez
                John Thompson
                Steve Trachsel
                Jeff Weaver
                Last edited by DoubleX; 02-07-2008, 12:00 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I agree with you, Chris I was thinking similar thoughts when I said that.

                  Anywho, Schill gets the runaround bt a lot of people who underestimate him, but he stole back a couple of near-prime seasons at age 39 and 40, and actually was our best playoff pitcher of our ring years not named Josh beckett or Derek Lowe. He was well above average to the end, if this is the end.

                  Pity they can't bend the rules and retire his number. Considering the number of things he did to shorten his post-prime career in the name of trying to carry the Red Sox on his back, if anyone should get the rules bent for them it's Curt.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                    For instance, if he was aware of his injury and knew he could not perform but represented he could, then the Sox might have grounds to rescind the contract on bad faith by Schilling.

                    Anywho, this does create an interesting situation for the Sox. I would guess Buchholz would factor in more than the Sox had planned (though I'm sure they figured they'd be dealing with injuries at some poin anyway). But there are also some decent starters left on the market, who won't be Schilling, but might be able to give some innings as a decent 4 or 5 starter. Some names out there (I'm not sure what the health is of all these guys):

                    Kris Benson
                    Bartolo Colon - Could be an interesting gamble, though I don't if he's healthy
                    Josh Fogg
                    Freddy Garcia - Another interesting gamble
                    Livan Hernandez - Can't believe he's still out there. At the very least, he'll give you innings.
                    Kyle Lohse
                    Rodrigo Lopez
                    Eric Milton
                    Russ Ortiz
                    Odalis Perez
                    John Thompson
                    Steve Trachsel
                    Jeff Weaver
                    That's what i'm talking about. If he knew he couldnt or was unwilling to perform, there might be an opening for a void.

                    Colon is apparently not even throwing 90 anymore. No one seems to have any interest in Fogg. Loshe will be way too expensive. Ect., ect....

                    I'd like to look at Hernandez and Garcia, if any of em.
                    Originally posted by Domenic
                    The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'd rather start Papelbon than go with any of that lot. Especially with either Oki or Delcarmen both putting up numbers that look like they could slide into the closer's role, and Masterson, Hansen and Jones as possible guys who could come up and make up the difference..

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you had been around last season, you would seen me campaigning hard for Papelbon to be in the rotation -- and I still feel he should give it a go. I don't care if he has bad dreams in spring training, throw 180 innings!
                        Originally posted by Domenic
                        The Yankees should see if Yogi Berra can still get behind the plate - he has ten World Series rings... he must be worth forty or fifty million a season.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Westlake View Post
                          That's what i'm talking about. If he knew he couldnt or was unwilling to perform, there might be an opening for a void.
                          It's a possibility, but I think the physical will likely snuff that one out, especially since that is the industry's custom to conduct physicals before signing, so when the Sox signed him it's presumed that they knew what they were doing and accepted the physical's results. If the Sox want to rescind the contract, it's likely that they'll have to exploit some ambiguous language in the contract which they believe gives them an out in this situation. I can't really picture what that would be right now, but lawyers can be pretty clever in devising contracts and then subsequently interpreting the language. If there is such ambiguous language, they would be helped by some kind of communication with Schilling in which the parties came to an understanding that the language meant to include this scenario. I have my doubts though that something happened where Schilling said or wrote something like "yeah, I understand that this term will cover the event that I have season-ending surgery before the season starts." Anyway, I wouldn't say it's impossible, but Schilling's side likely has the upper hand here, failing some kind of gaffe when drafting the contract (such as agreeing to allow the Sox to void in a situation like this or giving the Sox broad or ambiguous voiding powers).

                          Colon is apparently not even throwing 90 anymore. No one seems to have any interest in Fogg. Loshe will be way too expensive. Ect., ect....

                          I'd like to look at Hernandez and Garcia, if any of em.
                          There are certainly no gems here, but there are a few guys that have had some success and might be able to step in and pitch decently in the back of the rotation. Hernandez is probably the best choice. He's probably the most consistent in the bunch and he'll give you innings. If Schilling is gone, and with the Sox planning on being conservative with Buchholz, and quite possibly Lester as well (you think you'll get close to 200 innings from him?), Hernandez would be a pretty sensible signing and should be at least adequate in the back of the rotation.

                          EDIT: What I'm really wondering is how the Sox could not have detected this. You got a 41 year old pitcher with an injury history, and who you were upset about reporting out of shape last year to the point where you insisted upon including weight-clauses in this contract, so you'd think they would really give him a thorough examination in a physical prior to signing. They were obviously concerned about his fitness, so I just don't see how you could miss something like a torn-labrum? Then on Schilling's end, how could he not know something was seriously wrong with his shoulder when he signed? Is this just something that developed recently, post-signing?

                          It definitely looks like there could be some bad faith by Schilling here - how can you not sense something is seriously wrong? But on the Sox end, how could they miss something like that, especially when they have lots of reasons to really look at Schilling closely before signing? It's actually a pretty interesting situation the more I think about it, but I still think the physical would act as a waiver, even assuming Schilling represented that he would be able to go, and that the Sox will likely have to get creative with the contract's language to find an out.
                          Last edited by DoubleX; 02-07-2008, 12:41 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Westlake View Post
                            If you had been around last season, you would seen me campaigning hard for Papelbon to be in the rotation -- and I still feel he should give it a go. I don't care if he has bad dreams in spring training, throw 180 innings!
                            Besides, don't you think that seeing Beckett would have proven to him that he could have fun as a starter?

                            Lowrie for Nathan, Paps to the rotation. Get it done.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Imgran View Post
                              Lowrie for Nathan, Paps to the rotation. Get it done.
                              I think trying to get Nathan and putting Papelbon in the rotation is a good idea. It would probably take more than just Lowrie though to get Nathan. I also wonder how Papelbon would hold up as a starter given that he's been a one-inning pitcher the past two seasons, has never thrown more than 68 innings in a season in the Majors, and the most innings he's pitched in a season at any level is 148 (2005, combined minors and majors). So it likely won't be an easy transition, and I think you'd really be building Papelbon up for real success as a starter in 2009. That's not to say that he wouldn't have periods of success in 2008, I just don't think he has the conditioning right now to be healthy and effective for an entire season as a starter, so it would be something of a project.

                              Comment

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