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  • Crisp for Marquis and Fuld

    On the Cubs threads, someone mentioned this deal, Crisp to Chicago for Jason Marquis and Sam Fuld. It makes sense for the Cubs as they would get a good defensive CF who might be able to hit enough to keep his job. The Sox would get a 5th starter and a 4th/5th OF. On the whole I think Cubs' fans could live with it because most of us don't like Marquis but would prefer to see Pie get his shot.

    I'm not saying the deal is even going to happen or would happen.
    Just wondering what the Red Sox fans would think of the deal?

  • #2
    The Sox might be able to use a veteran 5th starter depending on the status of Beckett (though Colon could be the answer). But if they were interested in Marquis, why not just sign Kyle Lohse and save Crisp for another trade or depth? They are essentially the same pitcher except Lohse has a lot of experience in the AL, while Marquis has been mostly in the NL Central.

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    • #3
      i am not interesting in the trade...Crisp is much more valuable than that imo

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      • #4
        Jason Marquis?! IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUE EAST??! Oh dear God no!!!!!

        As for Fuld, what exactly can he give us that Brandon Moss, Bobby Kielty, Jonathan Van Every and Jeff Corsaletti between them can't? I mean, if he was righthanded maybe, but another southpaw outfielder? Heck no!

        That's basically nothing. You're trying to get the best defensive outfielder in baseball for pieces you wouldn't mind getting rid of. Dream on!

        You're trying to pry Crisp away from a sabermetrician GM. And sabermetrics love Crisp. By Win Shares, Crisp is right up there with Torii Hunter, largely on the basis of his defense but he did manage positive offensive win shares as well on the basis of his baserunning. That besides the fact that once moved to the weakest division in baseball, Crisp probably starts hitting again. NFW on that deal. The conversation starts with at LEAST Kerry Wood or another useful relief arm.
        Last edited by Imgran; 03-11-2008, 09:09 AM.

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        • #5
          Agree with what others have said. This proposed deal doesn't fill any needs for the Red Sox, and weakens their OF. I would think to pry Crisp away from Boston, Chicago would have to offer a solid reliever or a good prospect or two.

          A lousy 5th starter (who's got a bad reputation as being hard-headed) and another 4th or 5th outfielder (won't cut it).
          Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

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          • #6
            Cubs are offerring nothing I would consider appealing for Crisp. At the moment, Crisp needs to build his value back up with his bat, then he can be traded. I do believe Crisp is better than what he's being valued as by other MLB teams and would prefer to get close the equal value for him. Jason Marquis is far from equal value for Coco Crisp, even with Crisp's offense being down the past two seasons, but I do expect Crisp is capable of hitting like he did with Cleveland again.

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            • #7
              I read this story elsewhere and found it lacking substance. It smells of something a Cubs beat writer brainstormed to fill his column. Its a slow news cycle in the baseball world. The newness of Spring Training is gone and most of us are just waiting for Opening Day, players and writers included.

              I do think Crisp will be traded this season. I also expect the Sox to play him, assess his value, then use him as part of a trade to shore up the pitching or cover for some unforeseen injury. Its always nice to have a movable piece(or ten).

              As others have said, Marquis would be absolutely lit up in the AL East.
              2008

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Evangelion View Post
                Cubs are offerring nothing I would consider appealing for Crisp. At the moment, Crisp needs to build his value back up with his bat, then he can be traded. I do believe Crisp is better than what he's being valued as by other MLB teams and would prefer to get close the equal value for him. Jason Marquis is far from equal value for Coco Crisp, even with Crisp's offense being down the past two seasons, but I do expect Crisp is capable of hitting like he did with Cleveland again.
                If Crisp hits like he did with Cleveland, you wouldn't want to hold on to him? Put that kind of offense (say a 110 OPS+) with his great defense and good baserunning, he'd vault right up to one of the best all around CFers in the game.

                It could be good to have Crisp around for depth anyway. Ellsbury is still a rookie and he might not yet have the conditioning to deal with playing regularly for six months at the ML level (I think that was Melky Cabrera's problem down the stretch last year), you really don't know what you'll get from J.D. Drew in terms of health or production, Manny might decide to take a month off for the third straight year, and I think Ortiz is due to miss some time with injuries one of these years (it was almost last year with his knees)
                Last edited by DoubleX; 03-12-2008, 07:07 AM.

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                • #9
                  You know, it would be appealing to have Crisp around in case Papi misses some time...then, you DH Manny and can go with the killer defensive OF with Crisp in center and Ellsbury in left, especially on the road (and big LFs like Yankee). Or, of course, for when Manny takes his yearly break.
                  Problem is that Crisp makes a lot of money for that kind of role, even though the Bosox can afford it. He really just makes too much money for the level of offense he's provided the last two years, as far as any team would be concerned.
                  One of Marquis' only strength recently has been that he is a good hitter for a pitcher, but that's useless in the AL. Rather get a young reliever who can help out now or down the road.
                  "I throw him four wide ones, then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on pitching to Musial

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hellborn View Post
                    You know, it would be appealing to have Crisp around in case Papi misses some time...then, you DH Manny and can go with the killer defensive OF with Crisp in center and Ellsbury in left, especially on the road (and big LFs like Yankee). Or, of course, for when Manny takes his yearly break.
                    Problem is that Crisp makes a lot of money for that kind of role, even though the Bosox can afford it. He really just makes too much money for the level of offense he's provided the last two years, as far as any team would be concerned.
                    I don't think Crisp is paid that outrageously. Yeah, you'd like more offense from him, but he's still young enough and showed enough a few years ago with Cleveland, that it's not a stretch to think he could get back to that level. Plus he's a terrific defender and good baserunner. Consider that Juan Pierre and his 84 career OPS+ will make 8 mil this year, Crisp at 4.75 mil doesn't seem bad at all. I think if Crisp became a free agent this offseason, he'd probably get at least that on the market anyway.

                    In general though, the Sox are kind of interesting in how they dole out money. They overpay for some, notably Drew, Lugo, and Renteria before that, Cora, and Matsuzaka, but then won't spend on proven heroes like Damon and Pedro, and can get away with below market contracts for guys like Beckett and Ortiz. It's kind of interesting.

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                    • #11
                      Well their reads have been pretty good so far, Renteria obviously excepted, so I'll give the FO a large benefit of the doubt with what they decide to do -- unless they trade viable talent for smoke and mirrors or something silly like that *coughGagnecough*.

                      I don't think the money is the big thing with letting those guys go. History's shown Theo to be right more often than not, but what I was concerned about was ability to replace. The only non-re-signing that didn't make sense at the time was Damon, and that because we had a limited ability to replace for him. That's not an issue here. If anything, the issue is that the replacement is far too ready.

                      I don't think that Ellsbury and Crisp can coexist on the same roster, but then again there's nothing preventing Ellsbury from spending some time in the minors waiting for a Coco trade either. Crisp is, after all, the incumbent CF.
                      Last edited by Imgran; 03-12-2008, 08:40 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Imgran View Post
                        Well their reads have been pretty good so far, Renteria obviously excepted, so I'll give the FO a large benefit of the doubt with what they decide to do -- unless they trade viable talent for smoke and mirrors or something silly like that *coughGagnecough*.
                        Lugo? Drew? Good reads? Even if they play better this year, the Sox paid too much. I also suspect that when all is said and done, the price paid for Matsuzaka, which was well above the next team's bid, will be seen as too much.

                        I don't think that Ellsbury and Crisp can coexist on the same roster, but then again there's nothing preventing Ellsbury from spending some time in the minors waiting for a Coco trade either. Crisp is, after all, the incumbent CF.
                        Why not? There will be plenty of ABs for both. Last year the Yankees started the season with Melky Cabrera as the 4th OFer, and he got plenty of ABs moving around the OF (though the Yankees had more flexibility at DH than the Sox who Ortiz planted there), before taking over full time in CF. Such would seem to be a good way to implement Ellsbury at the beginning, particularly because it could keep him better rested down the stretch as he's not used to a full ML season (like I said, I think this hurt Melky last year). But with Drew being a perennial risk to miss time, Manny being Manny, and Crisp perhaps ineffective offensively, there should be plenty of opportunities for Ellsbury.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                          If Crisp hits like he did with Cleveland, you wouldn't want to hold on to him? Put that kind of offense (say a 110 OPS+) with his great defense and good baserunning, he'd vault right up to one of the best all around CFers in the game.

                          It could be good to have Crisp around for depth anyway. Ellsbury is still a rookie and he might not yet have the conditioning to deal with playing regularly for six months at the ML level (I think that was Melky Cabrera's problem down the stretch last year), you really don't know what you'll get from J.D. Drew in terms of health or production, Manny might decide to take a month off for the third straight year, and I think Ortiz is due to miss some time with injuries one of these years (it was almost last year with his knees)
                          For Crisp to show he can hit like he did in Cleveland, he'll have to play. If he's that much better than Ellsbury this season, then sure, I would love to keep Crisp. If he's just around Ellsbury's level, then I trade him after he reestablished he can be the hitter that existed in Cleveland. I suspect Ellsbury will be the RoY. Will he be an All-Star? I don't believe that, but he'll give us production I expected from Crisp when he first got here.

                          Though, in the end, I don't know if I want Crisp traded since when the times comes, there might be needs the teams needs to address and trading Crisp would address them or, like you noted, Drew might be terrible again and letting Crisp handle RF wouldn't be a bad idea or Manny Ramirez is out for a extended time. One thing I do know for sure would be I want Crisp to play and to return to his offensive form in Cleveland here in Boston. Whether I want him to leave or not is undetermined at the moment.
                          Originally posted by Imgran View Post
                          Well their reads have been pretty good so far, Renteria obviously excepted, so I'll give the FO a large benefit of the doubt with what they decide to do -- unless they trade viable talent for smoke and mirrors or something silly like that *coughGagnecough*.

                          I don't think the money is the big thing with letting those guys go. History's shown Theo to be right more often than not, but what I was concerned about was ability to replace. The only non-re-signing that didn't make sense at the time was Damon, and that because we had a limited ability to replace for him. That's not an issue here. If anything, the issue is that the replacement is far too ready.

                          I don't think that Ellsbury and Crisp can coexist on the same roster, but then again there's nothing preventing Ellsbury from spending some time in the minors waiting for a Coco trade either. Crisp is, after all, the incumbent CF.
                          Why would Ellsbury go back to Triple A? He would get plenty of chances to play if he happen to be the fourth outfielder. Unlike Crisp, I doubt he complain he isn't starting and accept the role on the team. I do not believe there's much more for Ellsbury to learn at Triple A. Only reason he be there to play on a regular basis, but he should get plenty of time at the MLB level as a fourth outfielder, because look at the corner outfield positions and tell me Drew or/and Ramirez will be there every game that week. People might forget that Drew's fragile, it just didn't appear last year.

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                          • #14
                            Not worth it.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                              I don't think Crisp is paid that outrageously. Yeah, you'd like more offense from him, but he's still young enough and showed enough a few years ago with Cleveland, that it's not a stretch to think he could get back to that level. Plus he's a terrific defender and good baserunner. Consider that Juan Pierre and his 84 career OPS+ will make 8 mil this year, Crisp at 4.75 mil doesn't seem bad at all. I think if Crisp became a free agent this offseason, he'd probably get at least that on the market anyway.

                              In general though, the Sox are kind of interesting in how they dole out money. They overpay for some, notably Drew, Lugo, and Renteria before that, Cora, and Matsuzaka, but then won't spend on proven heroes like Damon and Pedro, and can get away with below market contracts for guys like Beckett and Ortiz. It's kind of interesting.
                              Crisp is a better player and deal than Pierre, and he was a better bang for the buck than Drew and Lugo last year. I don't think that Theo would sign him for that kind of money for the production of the last two years, though. As I've mentioned before, I strongly fear that Coco's hitting took a slide because of his hand, and he may never get back to where he was if that isn't getting better over time (I've heard that it still bothers him on a daily basis). Coco is not a zero with the bat, but he's pretty much a fourth outfielder to me, despite the excellent defense (a lot of guys in the minors can really catch the ball, too).

                              I think that the spending patterns you mention make some sense. Damon and Pedro were both older and entering the decline phases of their careers, and their play since leaving has shown that. Johnny had a good first year with the Yanks, and last year was only OK...Pedro's had arm troubles since day 1 with the Mets. Not the kind of players it makes sense to make huge investments in. They signed deals with Beckett and Ortiz at excellent times...during a time of struggles for Josh, and after Ortiz' breakout 3/4 of a year after being dumped by the Twins. Brilliant timing by the team, and questionable decisions by the players and their agents, especially considering the ages of the players.
                              Dice K was young and had filthy stuff, a lot of quality pitches. He also became a phenomenon due to the WBC. He was a risk that may not pan out, but you could see why he was attractive, due to his age, the quality of his pitching in Japan, and his array of pitches. He didn't have that nasty stuff last year, for whatever reason(s).
                              Drew, Renteria, and Lugo could probably all have expected to have 3 or so years of near peak performance left (all around 30 when signed), but there were warning signs with all of them. Drew has always been up/down OK/DL, but had truly electric skills when healthy. Renteria and Lugo had good track records...Edgar was off somewhat in '04 but had a 130 OPS+ in '03, so the Bosox were hoping for a bounceback. He showed up with a BAD back, went after grounders like a man wearing a back brace. Lugo was mysteriously horrible with LA and stayed about the same with Boston...I don't know what's up with him, assume that he has a hidden injury. I think the team would have been thrilled to keep OCab, but he put the team in a bind by refusing to sign until he could see what kind of deal Renteria had.
                              I think there was a little desperation regarding RF and SS the last few years...there was not a glut of FAs or prospects at either position after Nixon and OCab were gone, and the team needed to stay strong and strike while the iron was hot with Manny, Ortiz, Schilling, etc. It would have been great if Wily Mo could have handled RF (another gamble that didn't work) or OCab had just stayed, but the team threw more money at the problems, didn't get the best solutions, yet still moved on to a WS win last season. Not so bad!
                              "I throw him four wide ones, then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on pitching to Musial

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