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Manny: Best Sox LFer Ever?

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  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by DickZ View Post
    The only category in which Manny actually tops Williams is the length of his dreadlocks.

    Of course, Manny has made it to two World Series championships, and contributed greatly to each of them. Ted never even came close to that. Making it to a victorious conclusion for the team has to count for something.

    Still, as an individual performer based on measurable statistics, Williams stands at the top of the list.
    Don't forget though that Manny benefited from the expanded playoff format, in which his team needed to finish 1st out of 5 to make the postseason, and then still had the wild card to fall back on (as the Sox did in '04). In Williams' time, his team needed to be the best of 8 teams to make it. If more than one team made postseason in Williams' time, he almost certainly would have had more than just one shot at the Series as the Sox between 1939 and 1951, Williams' prime years (when not serving), were generally a very competitive team.

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  • DickZ
    replied
    The only category in which Manny actually tops Williams is the length of his dreadlocks.

    Of course, Manny has made it to two World Series championships, and contributed greatly to each of them. Ted never even came close to that. Making it to a victorious conclusion for the team has to count for something.

    Still, as an individual performer based on measurable statistics, Williams stands at the top of the list.

    Leave a comment:


  • four tool
    replied
    When Yaz roamed left, he played the carooms off the wall better than anyone else ever--and in those days the tin led to some weird carooms and bounces. Everyone in Boston knew that Ted played the wall well--after a while-- but Yaz was THE MAN for wall defense. The only opposing player who seemed to master the wall was Joe Rudi and that opinion was from people who watched the players year after year and decade after decade.

    Manny is very good out there despite his lapses, probably better defensively than Rice, but not quite up there with Rudi, let alone Yaz.

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  • four tool
    replied
    Originally posted by Boston Boxer View Post
    i dont care what baseball "experts" say...Manny is the best Red sox LF i have ever seen. I can remember Yaz at first base, but never personally saw him play the OF, so its Manny for me.
    Ever seen is one thing, best ever is something else--I never saw Ruth or Walter Johnson, but that doesn't make them inferior to other players.

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  • hellborn
    replied
    Originally posted by Johnny Evers View Post
    I'm not sure that you're refuting much of what I'm saying. Despite Yaz winning the Triple Crown, I still contend that Manny is the better hitter (Yaz's career OPS+ is 129, Manny's is 154, with his best years witht he Sox). He's been undeniably consistent, a quality Yastrzemski could not identify with. Even if Manny never reached the heights of Yaz's 1967 season, he's had six years in Boston with an OPS+ over 130 and appears to be working towards another one right now. Yaz had eight in 22 years in Boston.

    You make it a point that Manny's best years have been fueled by a lack of playing time - of those six excellent seasons, in only two of them did Manny play less than 140 games (his least was 120 in 2002). Also, in those years Manny has averaged 518 at bats, almost exactly Yaz's figure during those great years that surround 1967. And even Manny has played less, I can't find any impact to that which would discredit his higher OPS+.

    I think we are essentially in agreement. If anything, there is confusion as to what qualifies as "best" - you seem to value Yaz's peak years more than his overall performance, which is a beneficial interpretation.
    I think we do basically agree...I was just saying that I thought Yaz' best years with the bat were comparable with Manny's in Boston. Manny has already sustained a high level of production longer than Yaz did, that is quite true. It's not quite fair to compare their career OPS+ numbers because Yaz hung around so long and Manny isn't done yet, but Yaz didn't do an awful lot with the bat after age 30.
    If I had to pick one of them in his prime, I'd go with Yaz because he had great D to go with the strong bat in his best years and was a real leader. If I was guaranteed to have either one for his entire career, I'd probably go with Manny.

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  • Johnny Evers
    replied
    Originally posted by hellborn View Post
    Yaz's peak was fairly short (until about the age of 30, with a resurgence around 33-34), but, holy cow, the man won a triple crown. His OPS+ numbers for his peak line up pretty well with Manny's, and he was one of the top hitters in the AL in the '60s. If you read up on his incredible play down the stretch in '67, you might start to think that the guy was a demigod...he was treated as such then. He wasn't asking to be traded, as Manny has done several times when the team got down to crunch time.
    Manny's very best years with the Bosox have been short ones, too, 120 and 130 games. In Manny's favor, he's been favored less by playing at Fenway than Yaz was...Yaz is one of the biggest "homers" in history, among top players. I would argue that Manny is more likable than Yaz was, in some ways...Carl was notoriously prickly towards the end of his career, and never that friendly with the press. It took an outsized personality in El Tiante to knock him down a little and get him to be more like one of the guys...Luis used to call Yaz "Polacko" and ride him for being cheap, even threw one of his ratty old raincoats out of a bus window. I think that Yaz loved it, and was incredulous when the front office let Tiant go.
    I'm not sure that you're refuting much of what I'm saying. Despite Yaz winning the Triple Crown, I still contend that Manny is the better hitter (Yaz's career OPS+ is 129, Manny's is 154, with his best years witht he Sox). He's been undeniably consistent, a quality Yastrzemski could not identify with. Even if Manny never reached the heights of Yaz's 1967 season, he's had six years in Boston with an OPS+ over 130 and appears to be working towards another one right now. Yaz had eight in 22 years in Boston.

    You make it a point that Manny's best years have been fueled by a lack of playing time - of those six excellent seasons, in only two of them did Manny play less than 140 games (his least was 120 in 2002). Also, in those years Manny has averaged 518 at bats, almost exactly Yaz's figure during those great years that surround 1967. And even Manny has played less, I can't find any impact to that which would discredit his higher OPS+.

    I think we are essentially in agreement. If anything, there is confusion as to what qualifies as "best" - you seem to value Yaz's peak years more than his overall performance, which is a beneficial interpretation.

    Leave a comment:


  • hellborn
    replied
    Originally posted by Johnny Evers View Post
    Ted Williams is best - I'm fairly sure that's noncontroversial. I don't understand how anyone can justify Yastrzemski over Ramirez in terms of run production. I understand that Yastrzemski was a great player, but I feel as though a lot of plaudits he receives are more based on his likability, his leadership on those 60's and 70's teams, and nostalgia than his capability as a hitter. Objectively, Manny's offense is superior.
    ...
    Yaz's peak was fairly short (until about the age of 30, with a resurgence around 33-34), but, holy cow, the man won a triple crown. His OPS+ numbers for his peak line up pretty well with Manny's, and he was one of the top hitters in the AL in the '60s. If you read up on his incredible play down the stretch in '67, you might start to think that the guy was a demigod...he was treated as such then. He wasn't asking to be traded, as Manny has done several times when the team got down to crunch time.
    Manny's very best years with the Bosox have been short ones, too, 120 and 130 games. In Manny's favor, he's been favored less by playing at Fenway than Yaz was...Yaz is one of the biggest "homers" in history, among top players. I would argue that Manny is more likable than Yaz was, in some ways...Carl was notoriously prickly towards the end of his career, and never that friendly with the press. It took an outsized personality in El Tiante to knock him down a little and get him to be more like one of the guys...Luis used to call Yaz "Polacko" and ride him for being cheap, even threw one of his ratty old raincoats out of a bus window. I think that Yaz loved it, and was incredulous when the front office let Tiant go.

    Leave a comment:


  • efin98
    replied
    Originally posted by Dodgerfan1 View Post
    For what it's worth, Duffy Lewis was considered among the best left fielders of his time. I would say he was certainly considered a much better fielder in his day than Ramirez is today. Manny would seem to have a very overinflated opinion of himself as a fielder.
    Lewis played with the large berm in left field along with more room down the line so he had to face things that none of them had to face in their time...


    I love how this is still a story a full week later- Manny got what he wanted, people to keep him in their thoughts and to make comparisons to the greats of the past...for better or for worse.

    Leave a comment:


  • Westlake
    replied
    Originally posted by Dodgerfan1 View Post
    For what it's worth, Duffy Lewis was considered among the best left fielders of his time. I would say he was certainly considered a much better fielder in his day than Ramirez is today. Manny would seem to have a very overinflated opinion of himself as a fielder.
    You're being way too nice, Bill. He sucks in the field. Say it. You know you want to.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dodgerfan1
    replied
    For what it's worth, Duffy Lewis was considered among the best left fielders of his time. I would say he was certainly considered a much better fielder in his day than Ramirez is today. Manny would seem to have a very overinflated opinion of himself as a fielder.

    Leave a comment:


  • soberdennis
    replied
    Yaz was not exactly an automatic out at the plate. Sure, Manny is better offensively. He is one of the top offensive players in all of baseball in the last 20 years. But considering the fact that Yaz could handle the bat pretty well himself and had no peers in my lifetime playing the wall in left, I'll take Yaz overall.

    Leave a comment:


  • Boston Boxer
    replied
    Originally posted by Johnny Evers View Post
    Ted Williams is best - I'm fairly sure that's noncontroversial. I don't understand how anyone can justify Yastrzemski over Ramirez in terms of run production. I understand that Yastrzemski was a great player, but I feel as though a lot of plaudits he receives are more based on his likability, his leadership on those 60's and 70's teams, and nostalgia than his capability as a hitter. Objectively, Manny's offense is superior.

    Surely anyone who says that Manny is a competent left fielder is pretending. Last year the Hardball Times proclaimed him the worst in the big leagues.
    i dont care what baseball "experts" say...Manny is the best Red sox LF i have ever seen. I can remember Yaz at first base, but never personally saw him play the OF, so its Manny for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • soberdennis
    replied
    I did not see Ted. But I have heard enough to believe that nobody could shine his shoes offensively. I don't know much about his defense, though.
    Defensively, you are talking about the toughest left field in baseball. But saw one man who could play it as if he were born there. That was Yaz.

    Leave a comment:


  • Johnny Evers
    replied
    Originally posted by bpbp00
    Manny make act like a 12-year old sometimes, but he is the best right handed hitter the Red Sox ever had. Ted Williams is the best left-hander.
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    Offensively, Manny would rank only behind Ted Williams, and that's really no shame, as I think pretty much everyone not named Babe Ruth ranks behind Ted Williams offensively. I'd put Yastrzemski ahead of Ramirez based on overall ability and longevity, but when all is said and done, it's very plausible that Manny's offense will put him ahead of Yastrzemski, which in my book, should put Manny among the top 30 players ever (I have Yaz around 30).
    Ted Williams is best - I'm fairly sure that's noncontroversial. I don't understand how anyone can justify Yastrzemski over Ramirez in terms of run production. I understand that Yastrzemski was a great player, but I feel as though a lot of plaudits he receives are more based on his likability, his leadership on those 60's and 70's teams, and nostalgia than his capability as a hitter. Objectively, Manny's offense is superior.

    Surely anyone who says that Manny is a competent left fielder is pretending. Last year the Hardball Times proclaimed him the worst in the big leagues.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tyrus4189Cobb
    replied
    Ahem...


    NO

    Ramirez has been a great player in Red Sox history, but there is no way he beats out Williams. For fielding, he is pretty good in left but this can't make up for the hitting of Williams.

    Leave a comment:

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