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  • #16
    Originally posted by RogerRedSox
    Re: post 2 - I obviously wasn't thinking straight! I am actually shocked right now! I don't know what to write or think really. I can't belive it. I didn't think I'd see the day. Even though, in my darker moments, when he was swinging at EVERY first pitch, I thought we'd be better off without him I can't actually believe that Nomar isn't a Red Sox any more. Annie - please help us with some well-thought words.
    Sorry, Roger.... I don't have any.

    I agree fully with Flash Gordon and Kdub. The Sox got taken. The fans, as always, get the short end of the stick. I don't see any glorious ending in this.
    --Annie
    Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none. -Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)
    Remember Yellowdog
    ABNY

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    • #17
      I hated to see you guys lose Nomar. Its always tough to lose a franchise player who is a fan favorite as well. But if losing Nomar was inevitable, you still got a guy in Cabrera who is not exactly chopped liver. This trade doesn't mean your season is over. You still have a very good team. And while you have every right to to deeply hurt, bitter and disappointed, don't give up yet!

      I've watched Cabrera for years and he has always impressed me. I would probably have rated him as the overall second best shortstop in the NL behind Renteria. He's no Nomar and never will be, but I think if you give this guy a chance, you'll be surprised how good he is.

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      • #18
        I'm with YD here...

        Look, I love nomar as much as the rest of you, I really do. What it really comes down to is the high chance that nomar was going to walk at the end of the season. The choices were to let him walk and have to lose say embry or someone in the post-season for a decent SS replacement, or send him out now and get something for him.

        While I think middle relief is a major problem with this team, the defense was also. We needed a regular 1B that can play defense as well as get on base. We needed a 1B that can dig the balls out of the dirt, especially. McCarty can, but he's not an everyday player. Millar is hot and cold and ortiz isn't even close.

        We also needed a SS to replace nomar, and from what i've read, cabrera isn't exactly crespo.

        Do I like the trade? Of course not, I wanted nomar to be with the team for life. I just don't think that was going to happen and I'm glad we got some decent players in return.

        Of course, working in a retirement home, I get callous to death, which is what something like this feels like, so maybe I just got over it faster than most of you, but I assure you, if you give it a chance, you'll see that the team overall may be better off in the long run.
        "Endlessly deferred redemption provides, paradoxically enough, its own kind of reward... It tests our faith and marks us as spiritually stronger than other fans for whom entrance into heaven is a far cheaper thing."
        -Scott Stossel

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        • #19
          Originally posted by VTSoxFan
          But Nomah was FAMILY. He grew up in a baseball sense in Boston, and now he's been coldly traded like the card his picture is on.
          I wouldn't whine about it - thats business in baseball - he made it clear he wasn't happy there anymore - expos fans have been going through this for years - Larry Walker, Marquis Grissom, Pedro Martinez, and Vladdy ( who they got nothing in return for ) to name a few - life goes on and other players have to step it up -

          give Cabrera a chance - he can steal bases, turns the double play well, makes good contact and gives a solid effort everyday - I think you guys will grow to like him. You had more than enough offense over there anyways

          Great Ball Teams: Tigers '68, Phils '80, Tigers '84

          Comment


          • #20
            sorry for the poor choice of words, but even the Sox announcers for the game today mentioned that it was odd that for a player that had so much 'adulation', that he was always troubled or down about something...
            they implied that the feelings between player and fans were not mutual....
            so, if you're the GM and the player wants out, why not try to improve something about your ballclub??? I don't think its a matter of 'giving up' on the player - now admittedly, I don't follow the Sox closely, but, these announcers must know something about whats going on.....the guy wanted out, and he's gone.

            Great Ball Teams: Tigers '68, Phils '80, Tigers '84

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by VTSoxFan
              Don't belittle my sincere and heartfelt reaction to this as WHINING. I know as well as anyone how callous and calculated the business of baseball is, but this is only the latest in the long and terrible tradition of the Sox voluntarily giving up on their best players, and I'm sick of it. Don't diminish what I'm feeling and imply that I haven't the right to feel this way, because "it's just business."
              ...Annie annie annie..... welcome to MY world. This is your first time. Its difficult the first time. You are confused, hurt angry. You don't know hwether to cry or run somebody off the road.
              It gets easier as economics and "the business of sport" take a stronger and stronger hold of the game we love. Take solace that you still have a team and you still have a chance.

              Cabrerra will never be confused with Nomar at the plate but put in the right situation.......
              Country:: Kanada

              Comment


              • #22
                This trade has hurt alot of people...
                Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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                • #23
                  All right, heres my take on the whole situation. First of all, Theo. I'll admit it, he did a great job last year, but I personally think it was a complete fluke. Can anyone explain how the hell a 20-something year old kid can really be QUALIFIED to be the GM of th Boston Red Sox??!! He's not, and he just proved it by making this idiotic trade.

                  Now, assuming that Nomar would NOT have resigned with the Sox during the off-season, and this was the only way we could get something in return for losing him, couldn't we have done a little better than Cabrera, Mientkiewitcz and Roberts? Nomar is one of the best shortstops ever to play the game, not to mention that he is possibly the popular sports figures in Boston's history.

                  What we did get in return for Nomar is......not good. We got a guy who is a major downgrade at shortstop, (Even though I will admit he is still pretty good) but still a downgrade, and two guys who are gonna be bench players. He was worth MUCH more than this.

                  In my opinion, Millar is by far the biggest problem we have. Almost ALL of our defensive problems have revolved around him. He is a pathetic outfielder and an atrocious 1st baseman, he would be a decent DH, but we already have Ortiz. What we now have is a couple guys who CAN play gold-glove 1st base and gold glove outfield in Roberts and Mientkiewitcz but you know what? FRANCONA DOSENT HAVE THE BALLS TO BENCH GUYS LIKE MILLAR AND KAPLER. So, even though we desperately need Roberts and Mientkiewitcz to bolster up our defense, they are only going to be bench players and their talent is going to be WASTED.

                  So, as a result, contrary to what Theo said yesterday about turning our biggest weakness(Defense) into a strength, it is going to continue to be just as pathetic as always. And on top of that, our offense is going to be much weaker without Nomar.

                  Anybody else agree with all of this?? Hopefully I'm completely wrong about
                  EVERTHING, but I really believe all of this

                  Nice going Theo!!!!
                  Last edited by Captaincaveman19; 08-02-2004, 12:01 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Captaincaveman19
                    .............Now, assuming that Nomar would NOT have resigned with the Sox during the off-season, and this was the only way we could get something in return for losing him, couldn't we have done a little better than Cabrera, Mientkiewitcz and Roberts? Nomar is one of the best shortstops ever to play the game, not to mention that he is possibly the popular sports figures in Boston's history.
                    Would you have prefered a couple of draft choices?
                    Name 3 shortstops you would rather have before Cabrerra..

                    What we did get in return for Nomar is......not good. We got a guy who is a major downgrade at shortstop, (Even though I will admit he is still pretty good) but still a downgrade, and two guys who are gonna be bench players. He was worth MUCH more than this.
                    Only a major downgrade offensively.
                    Probably a defensive upgrade...
                    BTW. Mentkewitcz.... is not only a good fielder he has a decent bat (maybe not this year)

                    You guys at the top ($$$) gotta stop being so self-centered. This crap happens to us bottom feeders every freaking year... yet the first time you have to experience it you would think the bloody world had tilted!!!!

                    I agree you didn't get fair value. THATS LIFE in MLB 2004!!!!
                    Theo (idiot savant or not) had his hands tied. As did Minaya. When a player indicates that they WILL go FA they essentially castrate the GM. So YES Theo didn't get the max, YES you lost a favorite son (not a Guerrero though!!) but let Nomar share some of the blame. If he had signed the stoopid 17 Mil contract 18 months ago this thread doesn't exist.

                    Your love for Nomar has blinded you to the truth. This crappy trade was as much HIS doing as Theo's.

                    BTW. You got a couple of good players so don't run them down until you see them play for a season...
                    Country:: Kanada

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      You're right, Caveman. Theo's hits have been far outweighed by his misses at this point. We also now have a totally spineless, brainless manager who doesn't know a bullpen from his left elbow.

                      It still astonishes me how many people choose to believe that Shaughnessy says, or Gammons, or any of the other talking heads who have an axe to grind, or ratings to boost or papers to sell, rather than believe the words that came from Nomar’s own mouth. He always said he wanted to stay. He said he wanted to play his entire career in Boston, and win for the fans here. He said Boston was his home. If anyone can dig up a recording of him saying he was tired of Boston and wanted to leave, then and only then will I believe it. Last year I wrote to Gordon Edes, and asked him, “Why don’t you ask Nomar, flat out, if he wants to stay in Boston?” and Edes told me “because he wouldn’t tell me the truth.” So we’re just supposed to go on believing the press, when they won’t even bother to ask the questions? Why should I believe what they say, over what Nomar himself said a hundred times?

                      I think they never even attempted to have serious, locked room, hours-long contract negotiations. They offered a contract last year; Nomar made a counter-offer, and prepared to haggle. Isn't that what is supposed to happen? Instead Theo said "forget it, too late," and broke off “negotiations”, if that’s what you want to call it.

                      People say that Nomar looked unhappy in the last year or so. How was he supposed to feel, knowing that as he did that as much as he would like to stay, the front office had no intention of even talking to him about it? If they had entered serious negotiations, I don’t doubt for a second that a deal could have been reached. A one- time, take-it-or-leave-it offer isn’t the way to go about things. If a player had made the same move, the world would call for his head on a platter, and justifiably so. But when management does the same thing… it’s still the player’s fault?

                      If we had to lose Nomar (and to my dying day I won't believe we had to), we should have gotten PITCHING, too.

                      Mikey, I have for years been sickened by the way Montreal has been treated like a farm team for the rest of baseball. I don’t deny you any of your anger or frustration. Baseball is run by thieves and con-men, and it ALWAYS the fans who lose out.

                      Like I said before, I think it's just part of a long range plan to make the team so pathetic that they'll blow up the entire roster and start over on the cheap, like Detroit.
                      --Annie
                      Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none. -Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)
                      Remember Yellowdog
                      ABNY

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Nomaaa

                        Its a shame, he will be sorely missed, but probably would be gone next year. Thank god he didnt go to "Georgie Porgie's" Evil Empire. Now we need pitching.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by mikey_s
                          Would you have preferred a couple of draft choices?
                          Name 3 shortstops you would rather have before Cabrerra.. Only a major downgrade offensively. Probably a defensive upgrade... BTW. Mentkewitcz.... is not only a good fielder he has a decent bat (maybe not this year)
                          All right mikey, I know you must love Cabrerra and I'm happy about getting him but he still is obviously a downgrade at shortstop. By the way I could easily name about 10 shortstops I would love to have over Cabrerra,(Not necessarily saying we had the chance to get all of these guys) But, besides the obvious one such as Nomar, A-Rod, Jeter, Tejada and Renteria, just off the top of my head, how about Rafael Furcal, Bobby Crosby , Kyliel Green or Michael Young? I'm perfectly happy with Cabrerra, just saying he's a downgrade.

                          Also, your right Mentkewitcz as well as Robberts are defensive upgrades, however, even though they should become everyday players, they won't because Francona just isn't going to bench anybody to give them the everyday jobs they deserve.

                          Originally posted by mikey_s
                          You guys at the top ($$$) gotta stop being so self-centered. This crap happens to us bottom feeders every freaking year... yet the first time you have to experience it you would think the bloody world had tilted!!!!
                          You know Mikey this is exactly why I'm so frustrated, maybe it is a little self-centered, but we are at the top as far as money goes, so theres no reason why this stuff should happen. If we have to trade Nomar, maybe we should think about getting a dependable middle reliever or set-up man, not a couple of guys that are going to strengthen our bench.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Captaincaveman19
                            All right mikey, I know you must love Cabrerra and I'm happy about getting him but he still is obviously a downgrade at shortstop. By the way I could easily name about 10 shortstops I would love to have over Cabrerra,(Not necessarily saying we had the chance to get all of these guys) But, besides the obvious one such as Nomar, A-Rod, Jeter, Tejada and Renteria, just off the top of my head, how about Rafael Furcal, Bobby Crosby , Kyliel Green or Michael Young? I'm perfectly happy with Cabrerra, just saying he's a downgrade.

                            Also, your right Mentkewitcz as well as Robberts are defensive upgrades, however, even though they should become everyday players, they won't because Francona just isn't going to bench anybody to give them the everyday jobs they deserve.



                            You know Mikey this is exactly why I'm so frustrated, maybe it is a little self-centered, but we are at the top as far as money goes, so theres no reason why this stuff should happen. If we have to trade Nomar, maybe we should think about getting a dependable middle reliever or set-up man, not a couple of guys that are going to strengthen our bench.
                            Even Renteria is having a bad year (by his standards) as for Furcal, crosby or green.....not in the same class defensively...... Michael Young perhaps he has bveen very suprising but I can only judge by stats guys I haven't seen.

                            I have seen a LOT of Furcal and he simple isnot as good as everybody thinks, Greene I've seen a little and I have seen nothing of crosby just the things I read second hand.

                            The Boston on-field problems are their starting pitching. So if you can upgrade your starters at a reasonable price..... but if the defense is giving up 3 or more extra outs a game then upgrading your defense is "like" upgrading your pitching.

                            As for the economics stuff well that is going to have to work itself out. As a fan closer to the action than I this can't be new to you. The efforts to trade Manny and Nomar in the off-season the handling of Pedro's impending FA status, Variatek still isn't signed.... this can all lead very easily to the kind of shedding/rebuilding that anie was talking about.
                            Country:: Kanada

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I agree with most of what you just said Mikey, except for what you said about starting pitching, our starting pitching is fine except for Lowe and our defense is not going to improve much because Millar is still going to be seeing a decent amount of playing time and Francona just dosent seem to like putting our best defensive team on the field.

                              So, judging by the way Francona likes to manage the team, our defense isn't going to improve much and the only way to improve the team is to get some dependable relievers. Once we get Williamson back he will be a big help, but the other two guys we depend on the most before getting to Foulke, Embree and Timlin have blown two consecutive games in which we had the lead going into the 7th and 8th inning. I know it wouldn't be easy to get many guys who can make much of a difference in the bullpen, but I think thats the only way that this team will get any better.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                From http://deans-list.net:

                                If Garciaparra's Cubs play the Red Sox in the World Series, it'll be the biggest story of the young sports century. And if Chicago wins it all at Boston's expense, the Bambino won't be the only one cursing Red Sox Nation...

                                You don't have to play eight seasons in Boston to know that the singular of Red Sox is Red Sox - unless you're Nomar. During his farewell interview, Garciaparra reflected, "If it was under my control, I'd still be wearing a red sock uniform."

                                The fashion-conscious shortstop went on to add, "They can take the shirt off my back, but they can't take away the memories." But since the botched A-Rod trade last winter, it seemed Nomar would have given the shirt off his back just to get out of Boston...
                                Dean Christopher
                                http://deans-list.net
                                [email protected]

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