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  • #31
    Originally posted by Captaincaveman19
    I agree with most of what you just said Mikey, except for what you said about starting pitching, our starting pitching is fine except for Lowe and our defense is not going to improve much because Millar is still going to be seeing a decent amount of playing time and Francona just dosent seem to like putting our best defensive team on the field.

    So, judging by the way Francona likes to manage the team, our defense isn't going to improve much and the only way to improve the team is to get some dependable relievers. Once we get Williamson back he will be a big help, but the other two guys we depend on the most before getting to Foulke, Embree and Timlin have blown two consecutive games in which we had the lead going into the 7th and 8th inning. I know it wouldn't be easy to get many guys who can make much of a difference in the bullpen, but I think thats the only way that this team will get any better.
    What we should have gotten in a fair trade was a decent manager.
    --Annie
    Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none. -Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)
    Remember Yellowdog
    ABNY

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    • #32
      Originally posted by VTSoxFan
      What we should have gotten in a fair trade was a decent manager.

      They are actually rarer than a good SP.

      Look at all the questionable managers.

      Larry Bowa - Phils
      Jimy williams (former) - Astros
      TF - Sox land
      Robinson - Montreal
      Art Howe - NYM


      It is a rare commoditty and guys just get recycled....

      You guys had a decent manager in Grady.... I wish we would have grabbed him in the off season...
      Country:: Kanada

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      • #33
        I know this happened a month ago, but I've not had a chance to discuss it yet. I'm glad it happened. Nomar was stinking up the joint and obviously didn't want to be there, which was obviously hurting the team chemistry. At least we acquired Orlando Cabrera who's a top notch shortstop who was excited about playing for the BoSox. So we are much better off now. Bravo Theo!!!

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        • #34
          tdk, yous is one of the few posts in this thread that make sense. Sure, we all hated to lose Nomar, but it was pretty clear that after rejecting a 4-year, $60M contract, he wasn't coming back. What people forget was that the Red Sox didn't start pursuing ARod until after Nomar rejected that contract. If he really wanted to stay in Boston, he would have taken that offer.

          People want proof that Nomar was unhappy in Boston, but let's face it--as much as we may dislike sportswriters, they are the ones who are closer to the players than any of us, so when they talk about other players on the Sox who didn't like him or that Nomar was too self-absorbed, I'm going to believe them over any of us.

          Theo need to upgrade the defense, and he did just that. The Sox lead the majors in one-run losses, and that smacks of a need for defense. Sure, Cabrera and Mientkiewicz don't have the greatest bats, but their defense is arguably the best at their positions.

          And let's talk about health. If I'm not mistaken, Nomar was quoted as wanting "to be ready for November." NOVEMBER!!! Obviously, he was going to go FA. And he's already missed time with the Cubs for his heel (and wrist, too, I think). His durability is almost as much in question as Pedro's.

          Let's not also forget how well the Sox are playing since the trade. Maybe they would have done as well with him still here, but then again, maybe it's not a coincidence.

          Despite all that, I do miss Nomar, but I'd rather have gotten something for him than have him leave and get a draft pick. I think Theo did the best he could given what he had to work with, IMHO.

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          • #35
            If Nomar was unhappy, it wasn't because of his teammates, the fans, or being a member of the Red Sox. It was because the front office was operating in bad faith and never had any serious intention of resigning him, despite any lip service they may have given to the idea. I believe I read it someplace, or perhaps heard it on NESN, but Theo had told Nomar "don't worry, we're not going to trade you," and then turned right around and did trade him. They lied to him, and if they'd lie to him, who else are they lying to? What other players are they telling "we want you to stay forever!" while shoving them backward out the door? To my dying day I will not believe that Nomar wanted out of Boston -- same as Tek wants to stay, and Lowe, and Pedro, and Johnny... I wonder who's next to go.

            I can hear people saying now "It's a business!" But it's a lot more than just a business. Thousands of people wouldn't have signed up for BBF if it was short for "Better Business Fever." Baseball is something way beyond a business and a game, and once in a while that should be taken into consideration.

            Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted the team's playing so well, but I miss Nomar. He was practically family for more than eight years. His is not a presence one easily forgets. If the circumstances of his departure had been handled with more respect for what he did give the team for so long, then I would be more at ease with it. But I can't help but think the whole situation was mismanaged until the parting was inevitable, and the bad feelings on both sides were also inevitable. Nomar stopped trusting the front office, so they stopped trusting him, and after that... I suppose it was irreconcilable.

            Unlike Pesky6, I don't trust the sportswriters and talking heads, and take every word they say with not just a grain, but a tablespoon of salt. They are in the business of playing on the fans' emotions in order to sell papers, boost ratings, etc. They are little more than gossip columnists, and their sly innuendos and stirring-up of trouble and doubt and suspicion just makes me ill. If Edes, Shaughnessy or Lobel said the sun rises in the east, I'd want to go and make damn sure of it myself before believing it. Instead of relying solely on what I read and hear as filtered through these guys, all of whom have an agenda, I watch the games, listen to the postgame interviews, and form my own opinions. No, I don't get all the dirt they dig up, but I think they make half of it up anyway, and inflate and distort what they do hear, so I don't need them.

            None of this is meant to cast aspersions on Mientkiewicz or Cabrera. Both are fantastic players, and doing their best to bring this team to the World Series, and I'm glad they're playing for us. I just hope the front office treats them like respectable humans and not just lego blocks to snap off and replace on a whim.
            --Annie
            Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none. -Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)
            Remember Yellowdog
            ABNY

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            • #36
              Another thing

              Regarding the team's recent resurgence and fantastic record in August -- it's because the management is FINALLY endorsing and embracing the kind of baseball that for a hundred years has been the best kind -- small ball. Get em on, get em over, get em in. Steal, bunt, sacrifice. If they hadn't stubbornly clung to the slow and frustrating "bloop and a blast," station-to-station ball for months, then I have no doubt we'd be leading the East by a very comfortable margin, and it could have been done before The Trade, as the only one of the three new guys to be the archetypal "small-ball" player is Roberts, who hasn't played a whole lot. So the team isn't playing better BECAUSE of Nomar's departure; it's because three straight months of station-to-station, .500 ball finally drummed some sense into the Jamesian blockheads running things. They've finally realized that Runs Scored is a more impressive stat than OBP.
              --Annie
              Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none. -Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)
              Remember Yellowdog
              ABNY

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by VTSoxFan
                What we should have gotten in a fair trade was a decent manager.
                The last time I'd heard of this, Sweet Lou wanted out of Seattle, so the M's picked up Randy Wynn from TB.

                As Raco mentioned, and as I've said before, you folks already had a good manager, but f/one move which ended up biting him on the soft spot, he's gone.
                Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by VTSoxFan
                  Regarding the team's recent resurgence and fantastic record in August -- it's because the management is FINALLY endorsing and embracing the kind of baseball that for a hundred years has been the best kind -- small ball. Get em on, get em over, get em in. Steal, bunt, sacrifice. If they hadn't stubbornly clung to the slow and frustrating "bloop and a blast," station-to-station ball for months, then I have no doubt we'd be leading the East by a very comfortable margin, and it could have been done before The Trade, as the only one of the three new guys to be the archetypal "small-ball" player is Roberts, who hasn't played a whole lot. So the team isn't playing better BECAUSE of Nomar's departure; it's because three straight months of station-to-station, .500 ball finally drummed some sense into the Jamesian blockheads running things. They've finally realized that Runs Scored is a more impressive stat than OBP.
                  I should start taping some more Boston games, considering I've got MLB Extra Innings + VCR on two TV sets (but Tivo on only one unit).

                  Who's been the ones mostly bunting, stealing, double-steals and sacrificing? From what you've noticed, have most of the small ball runs been scored by hits, sac flies or the occasional squeeze?

                  Thanks.
                  Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                  Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                  THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                  Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I've noticed it from a lot of the guys -- Kapler laid down a beautiful sac bunt the other day, Bill Mueller stole a base (bringing his career total to something like 12), Johnny squaring to bunt more often, and of course Pokey can run, if he ever gets back from that ribcage injury.

                    It's been so frustrating to see so many runners left on base while the manager steadfastly refused to employ the sacrifice. They didn't even attempt a hit-and-run until the end of May, and as far as I've seen they haven't tried a squeeze play yet, though they did successfully squeeze a couple times last year. The one I remember best had Kapler scoring as Johnny bunted.

                    It's basically how the Angels have gotten it done, with a well-balanced team and a manager willing to take some risks, and give up an out to move the runners over, use the speedy guys to the best of their abilities, and not rely on the power hitters.

                    This all could and SHOULD have been done all year long! I guess someone finally realized that you can't play baseball with a calculator.
                    --Annie
                    Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none. -Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)
                    Remember Yellowdog
                    ABNY

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      VTSox, I will concede that it's a possibility that Nomar didn't want out of Boston, but can you honestly say that a 4-year, $60M offer is not reasonable? Say what you want, but if he really wanted to stay in Boston, if playing here really meant that much to him, don't you think he would have taken that deal?

                      BTW, Nomar has said that he wants to be a Cub, when just a month ago he wanted to be a "Red Sock" (as he put it). What can you believe?
                      Last edited by pesky6; 08-30-2004, 10:25 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I do honestly think he wanted to stay, and play and win for this team and these fans. I believe he entered into contract negotiations last year in good faith, doing business as it is always done, making a counter-proposal to the Sox's offer, and preparing to negotiate, and the Sox front office then did nothing. They never contacted him or his agent, and then after the season tried to orchestate that trade with Texas that would have made Nomar superfluous. They made a "take it or leave it" offer. If a player made such a proposal, the world would be calling for his head on a stick.

                        While I do agree that $60M is a more than acceptible sum, it was perfectly within Nomar's rights to make a counter-offer, to say, "Let's try this," and trust that the front office would negotiate in good faith. What big-name player doesn't negotiate? Who's to say they couldn't have worked out something less expensive? I read that before this season, Nomar's camp made an offer that was less expensive than the one the Sox offered last summer, and they were turned down flat. The front office, I believe, had no serious intention of resigning Nomar, since it seems to me that they went into it thinking this: "We'll make a handsome offer; when he counter-offers, we'll withdraw our offer, call him a money-grubber and show him the door." That's not a decent and trustworthy way to do business, whether in baseball or anywhere else, and isn't something that will engender trust in the other players who have to negotiate from now on.

                        Anyway, it's water under the bridge, and no good can come of getting worked into a lather over it again. The Sox are playing well, and Nomar seems to be settling well into his new team and new league. Good for him. He's out from under the muckraking eye of the Boston media, no longer being daily demonized by Shaughnessy and his ilk. He did a lot of good for us, for the team and the city, for many years, and I wish him all the best in the world.

                        (Except that big gold trophy, that is. He can't have that.)
                        --Annie
                        Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none. -Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)
                        Remember Yellowdog
                        ABNY

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I say it was a great trade... Nomar looks happy again as a Cub and he received a hero's welcome in Chicago plus the Red Sox are playing better than they've played all year. Maybe Nomar will have a Red Sock pitching to him in October... hopefully it'll be Sam Malone.
                          Cheers!
                          beware of the censorship police

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                          • #43
                            Even with the warm reception he has had at Chicago, I find it hard to believe that he will stay there after the year is over. I read somewhere before the trade was even made that he turned down the RedSox's offer because he ultimately wanted to go West. I still think that is his intentions (if that wasn't just a rumor) and I hope he does well where ever he ends up (as long as it is not with the Cubs ).
                            Go crazy folks. Go crazy!

                            -Jack Buck on Ozzie Smith's game winning home run in Game 5 of the 85 playoffs.

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                            • #44
                              Nomar Trade Helped Red Sox!

                              Sure, the Red Sox did lose a fair chunk of offense. But they are inproved defensively, and that was their biggest weakness before the trade. Cabrera is playing as well as or better than Nomar on defense and Mientkiewicz, who was also acquired in that trade, has yet to commit an error and allows Millar's iron glove to come out of the lineup. The trade also allowed the to get Roberts who is providing valuable speed.

                              The Cubbies needed some offense-- and now they have an elite #3 hitter who can carry the tam along with Alou and Sosa. It worked out well both ways.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Hey all--
                                I'm new to this forum, and I wanted to say that I joined because after reading a lot of the posts, I felt like you all actually had discussion about baseball, and not just ego stuff, so thanks for providing that.

                                I wanted to say about this thread: Although I agree with pesky about Nomar and the trade, VTSoxFan is a good exampe of what true Red Sox fans are all about...faith, openness and integrity. You saw Nomar as the face of the team, and you are genuinely hurt by his absence. While I do think that there was no hope of resigning him after this year (and yes, I think it was on his end), I'm not sure there are a lot of fans out there that are still willing to see baseball as so much more than a business. You're so hurt because you care so much...good for you.
                                "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

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