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Bronson Arroyo traded to Reds for Willy Mo Pena

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  • #31
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    There's all this talk about Pena being the RFer of the Sox future - he might actually be the CFer of the future with Crisp moving to RF.
    entirely possible. Pena's actually faster than what most people think. back in 2003 he was the 2nd fastest man going from first to third in the NL behind Corey Patterson (i doubt that's really changed).

    but more importantly, Pena's best position is in center. unlike the corners, he reads the ball very well off the bat and has a very quick first move. the issue is he doesn't always take a good route to the ball, but right now, he's so fast, it usually doesn't matter. he'll never be a gold glover, but in center, he's not the huge defensive liablity he's made out to be.

    in the corners, it's kinda like watching Terrence Long, takes him about a full second to react to the ball, and on top of taking bad routes, he will occasionally go in the wrong direction.

    Pena's arm is very strong. just a tick under Ichiro, Vlad, or Guillen. however, i think Pena is far more accurate that either three with it. he damn near had four OF assists in one game in 04. instead he had zero because the catcher dropped four perfect throws. but it was one of the most impressive things i've ever seen in the field.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Mike D.
      I'd say the good far outnumber the bad...would you disagree? If so, which do you consider his biggest "boners"?

      I had to draw some further attention to this. Well-put.
      "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

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      • #33
        Originally posted by efin98
        However this trade is a gift to him. He can start fresh in a city that will undoubtably embrace him as the #1 starter for the next few years. He will thrive out there without the pressure of maintaining his superstar status.
        I would imagine that Bronson feels very little like this was a gift to him. I would imagine that he feels like he's been hit by a double-crossing semi right about now.
        Regardless of how one feels about the trade, one can't like the way Boston has conversed with Arroyo up to this point this season.
        "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

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        • #34
          Originally posted by SoxSon
          I would imagine that Bronson feels very little like this was a gift to him. I would imagine that he feels like he's been hit by a double-crossing semi right about now.
          Regardless of how one feels about the trade, one can't like the way Boston has conversed with Arroyo up to this point this season.

          This is not a gift to go to Cinci. Who, other than griffey, WANTS to go there? Especially since its bronson, he loves boston, loves his teammates, and took a discount to stay there. Theo really comes off looking like a jerk here, but i guess its all business..but like i said before...i cant blame johnny after this.

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          • #35
            I'd be lying if I said this didn't surprise me. I considered Bronson to be trade bait, but I didn't think it would be so soon. I hope he lands a starting role in Cinci, he deserves a shot at it. I'm somewhat irritated that the Red Sox had to package anything to sweeten the deal in return for Peña and it makes me wonder just how good of a horse trader Theo really is. If the Sox are paying any portion of his salary, they're getting hosed; Bronson is at least a 3-starter for most MLB teams. My fiancé is going to be bummed when she finds out.

            On another note, I've noticed quite a few posts speculating that the arrival of Willy Mo means the beginning of the end for Trot Nixon. I'm surprised I'm not seeing more reaction to that very real possibility. Are the Sox just hanging loose to see if Trot puts himself on the DL while platooning? I'm guessing Theo isn't holding his breath that Juan Gone will set foot in Fenway. Oh well, at least Coco Crisp is hitting about the .450 mark in ST. That's something...I guess.

            2007 World Series Champions
            The Boston Red Sox

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            • #36
              Originally posted by warbuxpr
              Especially since its bronson, he loves boston, loves his teammates, and took a discount to stay there.
              Very true. That might very well be the last time anyone gives Theo and the Sox a discount.

              2007 World Series Champions
              The Boston Red Sox

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              • #37
                Originally posted by FlashGordon
                That might very well be the last time anyone gives Theo and the Sox a discount.
                You said it, Flash.

                As far as Nixon goes, I could be off on this, but I think most of us sense his end in Boston coming. We may not like to talk about it, but it's there (kind of like Mattingly... ).
                "Anything less would not have been worthy of me. Anything more would not have been possible." - Carl Yastrzemski

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ravenlord
                  a very even trade...assuming Arroyo returns to his 05 form and has been working on his stamina.

                  and FWIW, Pena has a below average OPS+.
                  If Pena doesn't improve, this is a bad trade, but he has the pontential of becoming a real star. It's a calculated risk that makes sense to me, though I hate to see Arroyo go.
                  BOSTON RED SOX WORLD CHAMPIONS 19031912191519161918 20042007

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                  • #39
                    How's Crisp working out in ST? Any reaction from the manager or FO? Reason I'm asking is that perhaps in addition to spelling or some kind of interim replacement for Nixon, Peña may also spell Crisp a few times, as he plays all 3OF spots.
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                    • #40
                      Theo has put his foot in it sometimes

                      Theo has indeed put his foot in it a few times; Let me see: Jeremy Giambi; Kim's whopping 2-year deal (which anyone with at least one working brain cell could see was a mistake) Jimmy Anderson; Sauerbeck; Suppan; I think we would have been better off keeping OC; ... There are more, but I have a horrible cold and my brain is at low ebb right now. It seems to me that Theo & co treat all but a select few players with a remarkable amount of indifference bordering on disrespect.

                      Today a friend of mine, blindsided by the Arroyo trade, said that if this keeps up, future free agents will steer waaaay clear of Boston, knowing that no deal (even for one year) with the Sox deal will be worth the paper it's written on.

                      I hate the thought of Trot leaving. He isn't the best player in the world; he never will be. But he defines the spirit of the Sox -- the grinding, dirty, all-out, run-through-walls mentality that so endears players to these fans. That's why we like Gabe Kapler, and liked Daubach, and guys who just play their hearts out. To think of Trot leaving just makes me ill.

                      Baseball is SO much more than a business; a team is not simply comprised of employees and bosses. It takes trust and loyalty going in both directions, and the ability for players to trust the Sox front office just took a hammer-blow today. Before anyone jumps on me about what I say, I repeat that I am fully aware that there are business aspects to modern baseball. I know this. But the front office should take a minute and think about what they've lost today, and I don't mean a pretty decent pitcher.

                      Being a fan is about loyalty, win or lose. I've been a Sox fan almost all of my life; families have been Sox fans for generations, in the long desert between World Series wins. It's not ALL about numbers; it's not ALL about winning. It's about The Game, and the men who play it. I for one can't root just for the uniform and never root for the guys who wear it.

                      I may come to like Pena; I know I'll never warm to Theo.
                      --Annie
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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by VTSoxFan
                        Theo has indeed put his foot in it a few times; Let me see: Jeremy Giambi; Kim's whopping 2-year deal (which anyone with at least one working brain cell could see was a mistake) Jimmy Anderson; Sauerbeck; Suppan; I think we would have been better off keeping OC; ... There are more, but I have a horrible cold and my brain is at low ebb right now. It seems to me that Theo & co treat all but a select few players with a remarkable amount of indifference bordering on disrespect.

                        Today a friend of mine, blindsided by the Arroyo trade, said that if this keeps up, future free agents will steer waaaay clear of Boston, knowing that no deal (even for one year) with the Sox deal will be worth the paper it's written on.

                        I hate the thought of Trot leaving. He isn't the best player in the world; he never will be. But he defines the spirit of the Sox -- the grinding, dirty, all-out, run-through-walls mentality that so endears players to these fans. That's why we like Gabe Kapler, and liked Daubach, and guys who just play their hearts out. To think of Trot leaving just makes me ill.

                        Baseball is SO much more than a business; a team is not simply comprised of employees and bosses. It takes trust and loyalty going in both directions, and the ability for players to trust the Sox front office just took a hammer-blow today. Before anyone jumps on me about what I say, I repeat that I am fully aware that there are business aspects to modern baseball. I know this. But the front office should take a minute and think about what they've lost today, and I don't mean a pretty decent pitcher.

                        Being a fan is about loyalty, win or lose. I've been a Sox fan almost all of my life; families have been Sox fans for generations, in the long desert between World Series wins. It's not ALL about numbers; it's not ALL about winning. It's about The Game, and the men who play it. I for one can't root just for the uniform and never root for the guys who wear it.

                        I may come to like Pena; I know I'll never warm to Theo.
                        I'm surprised to see all this resentment towards Theo (and not just from you Annie). Wasn't most of Red Sox nation weeping just a few months ago when it looked like Theo was gone? He's made some moves that haven't panned out, but what GM hasn't done that? IMO, this trade is great for the Sox. The team dealt from a position of surplus, a 7th starter, and acquired a very good young talent that at the very least, will provide good power off the bench. Yeah I know management made promises to Arroyo, but was that Theo or was that before Theo? The game is still a business and a GM has be above sentimentality and make the tough decisions that will make the team better. I think this deal certainly has the chance of making the team better since it acquired a young power hitter for its 7th starter. Imagine if you were a fan of the A's or the Royals - those GMs have to make the tough decisions to let their homegrown stars go and get what they can in return for the good of the team in the longrun. That's just the way the game is now, players are going to come and go all the time, a good GM needs to stay one step ahead and know when things are ripe. Arroyo was having a tough spring, he was going to be buried in the bullpen and as a spot-starter, so the chances are his value would have gone down as time went out, so now was the right time to make this kind of trade.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by VTSoxFan
                          Theo has indeed put his foot in it a few times; Let me see: Jeremy Giambi; Kim's whopping 2-year deal (which anyone with at least one working brain cell could see was a mistake) Jimmy Anderson; Sauerbeck; Suppan; I think we would have been better off keeping OC; ... There are more, but I have a horrible cold and my brain is at low ebb right now. It seems to me that Theo & co treat all but a select few players with a remarkable amount of indifference bordering on disrespect.
                          Giambi cost a minor league pitcher who has 30 career games at this point. He had a .400 OBP at age 27 the year the Sox acquired him. At the time, did that really seem like a bad move?

                          Kim's deal was a big one, relatively, but he was a 24 year old starter/reliever coming off a season with a 3.31 ERA. Again, at the time, not a terrible deal at all. When he didn't work out, they dumped him.

                          These and the others were all fairly minor deals that didn't work out for the team, but can you really say that any of them were "terrible" moves when they were made?

                          In that same time, Theo also brought in many of the core guys who led to the world series win (Ortiz, Schilling, Damon, Foulke).

                          Compare his track record to Gorman or Duquette, and I think it's obvious he's the best Red Sox GM in a LONG time.
                          Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mike D.
                            These and the others were all fairly minor deals that didn't work out for the team, but can you really say that any of them were "terrible" moves when they were made?

                            In that same time, Theo also brought in many of the core guys who led to the world series win (Ortiz, Schilling, Damon, Foulke).

                            Compare his track record to Gorman or Duquette, and I think it's obvious he's the best Red Sox GM in a LONG time.
                            You won't find many around here who will defend Duquette in a comparison with Theo.

                            Still, there were plenty of moves that made fans uncomfortable at the time (ditching Cabrera for Renteria, then dealing Hanley Ramirez come to mind), that we were willing to wait and see the final outcome before passing judgement. In fact, nearly all trades have to be approached with some cautious enthusiasm by the fans, otherwise they wouldn't be fans. But when a trade goes bad there is a natural tendency to look back at the time of the acquisition and selectively pick out the negative voices that say, I told you so.

                            BK Kim was certainly one of those you could see coming. His numbers were not that impressive and he'd already shown that he was inconsistent in pressure situations. That was an expensive one. Renteria wasn't cheap either, but the bigger question is which was the worse move: acquiring him, or ditching him for little return only one year later. The book isn't closed on David Wells, either. That's one that could very well explode if Boomer's mouth and back go into simultaneous spasms. And we still have yet to see Beckett earn his paycheck.

                            I think many Sox fans are still trying to figure out what the long-term strategy is here. It certainly doesn't seem to be improving upon the previous administration's track record of contentious splits with fan favorites.

                            2007 World Series Champions
                            The Boston Red Sox

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                            • #44
                              You can never have too much pitching. Especially when some of your starters are right around the age of 40. I assumed when they got Beckett they were looking ahead and trying to develop a good young core of starters. Plus, we just lost a starting pitcher with playoff experience.

                              On the other hand, Pena is from the DR too so I wonder if Big Papi had anything to do with this trade? If not, maybe he can help Pena with his hitting. There is the chance that Pena could blossom here and hit for a high average to go along with those home runs he will hit.
                              "He's tougher than a railroad sandwich."
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by FlashGordon
                                I'd be lying if I said this didn't surprise me. I considered Bronson to be trade bait, but I didn't think it would be so soon. I hope he lands a starting role in Cinci, he deserves a shot at it. I'm somewhat irritated that the Red Sox had to package anything to sweeten the deal in return for Peña and it makes me wonder just how good of a horse trader Theo really is.
                                If the Sox are paying any portion of his salary, they're getting hosed; Bronson is at least a 3-starter for most MLB teams. My fiancé is going to be bummed when she finds out.
                                It's not a straight up one for one deal, Boston has to pay the difference in their salaries(around $1.5 Million or so)

                                And there's no way he is anything above a 4th starter on any team other than a crappy one like the Reds, not with a 24-19 record the past two years and an average post season record. If not for the heavy hitting Red Sox he would have a losing record. He isn't as good as he is being made out to be.

                                On another note, I've noticed quite a few posts speculating that the arrival of Willy Mo means the beginning of the end for Trot Nixon. I'm surprised I'm not seeing more reaction to that very real possibility. Are the Sox just hanging loose to see if Trot puts himself on the DL while platooning?
                                Trot is averaging just over 123 games a year for his career with what seems like yearly stints on the DL during the most contested time in the schedule. It's inevitable that he will be on the DL, the Sox are covering their butts ahead of time instead of scurrying around looking for someone later at a much higher price. The trade gave the team something they needed and frees up more money next year for the team to go out and get another missing piece.

                                I'm guessing Theo isn't holding his breath that Juan Gone will set foot in Fenway. Oh well, at least Coco Crisp is hitting about the .450 mark in ST. That's something...I guess.
                                They have one thing they didn't have before- options. Juan Gone is a low risk chance, and getting Wily Mo covers them in case he is a flop.
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