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Bronson Arroyo traded to Reds for Willy Mo Pena

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  • #46
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    Yeah I know management made promises to Arroyo, but was that Theo or was that before Theo?
    It was before Theo, one of if not the last action that the GM duo made before Theo took over again.
    Best posts ever:
    Originally posted by nymdan
    Too... much... math... head... hurts...
    Originally posted by RuthMayBond
    I understand, I lost all my marbles years ago

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    • #47
      Originally posted by efin98
      And there's no way he is anything above a 4th starter on any team other than a crappy one like the Reds, not with a 24-19 record the past two years and an average post season record. If not for the heavy hitting Red Sox he would have a losing record. He isn't as good as he is being made out to be.
      I agree that Bronson isn't a one or two starter, but I think you over-estimate the number of teams for which the question marks don't begin until the 4-slot. I tend to feel that the bottom 15 teams have only 1 or 2 solid starters and that the difference between most contenders and pretenders is whether they have a 3rd. Bronson would make a reasonable gamble for a team looking for that stable 3rd at a price they can afford. Plus, he brings with him now the post-season in a pressure-cooker experience that will make him surprisingly resilient in the smaller markets. We'll have to check back at the ASB to see where he is.

      2007 World Series Champions
      The Boston Red Sox

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      • #48
        Originally posted by TonyK
        You can never have too much pitching. Especially when some of your starters are right around the age of 40. I assumed when they got Beckett they were looking ahead and trying to develop a good young core of starters. Plus, we just lost a starting pitcher with playoff experience.
        You can have too much pitching, especially if you have a mediocre buy holding back a young star on the rise. And you don't lose a pitcher with much playoff experience, you lose a guy who is spotty in the playoffs at best. And you may have three starters who are at or over 40 but those same guys can and will give you solid starts. One of those guys is not even showing any kind of rust due to age- he's a knuckler whose kind have been notorious for their long careers.


        On the other hand, Pena is from the DR too so I wonder if Big Papi had anything to do with this trade? If not, maybe he can help Pena with his hitting. There is the chance that Pena could blossom here and hit for a high average to go along with those home runs he will hit.
        Ortiz bloomed when he came to Boston. It may do the same for Pena. Perhaps Papa Jack could improve him in the same way he improved Papi.
        Best posts ever:
        Originally posted by nymdan
        Too... much... math... head... hurts...
        Originally posted by RuthMayBond
        I understand, I lost all my marbles years ago

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        • #49
          Originally posted by FlashGordon
          I agree that Bronson isn't a one or two starter, but I think you over-estimate the number of teams for which the question marks don't begin until the 4-slot. I tend to feel that the bottom 15 teams have only 1 or 2 solid starters and that the difference between most contenders and pretenders is whether they have a 3rd. Bronson would make a reasonable gamble for a team looking for that stable 3rd at a price they can afford.
          He's cheap and has experience, but his record isn't much to cheer about. He needs runs support to have any effectiveness otherwise he is a non factor. Him going to a team like the Reds may improve his stature but it doesn't help him much if they can't produce offensively. He may be what the Reds need and if he is good this year he will thrive outside of the limelight, but I doubt it. I think he's overrated and no better than a #4 or 5 starter regardless of where he goes.

          Plus, he brings with him now the post-season in a pressure-cooker experience that will make him surprisingly resilient in the smaller markets. We'll have to check back at the ASB to see where he is.
          His post seasons are nothing to cheer about, he was mainly a reliever and not a starter. He hasn't been overpowering nor has he been a stand out, just average at best.
          Best posts ever:
          Originally posted by nymdan
          Too... much... math... head... hurts...
          Originally posted by RuthMayBond
          I understand, I lost all my marbles years ago

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          • #50
            Originally posted by VTSoxFan
            I hate the thought of Trot leaving. He isn't the best player in the world; he never will be. But he defines the spirit of the Sox -- the grinding, dirty, all-out, run-through-walls mentality that so endears players to these fans. That's why we like Gabe Kapler, and liked Daubach, and guys who just play their hearts out. To think of Trot leaving just makes me ill.
            I love Trot's attitude, but he just seems to be failing physically...old before his time. Kapler seems like a great guy, and I wish I had his physique, but I wish that he actually knew how to play baseball at a high level. He stutter-steps in the outfield when the ball is hit to him, he has atrocious swing mechanics, and I have seen him pull some amazing rocks...like trying to make a fancy pirouette throw to hold a runner after a catch in RF and throwing the ball into LF instead. Daubach was fun in the one week a month when he could actually hit...just when you'd given up on him, he'd get a clutch hit off a tough pitcher and you'd be back on the hook.
            Because I love the Bosox and want to see them win, I want to see them get players who can REALLY, REALLY play baseball above all else...if they are also great guys, even better. Papi's big heart and toughness in the clutch are fantastic, but loopy Manny still wins lots of games for us without having the inspiring personality.
            I think that we often see ballplayers as being the people we want them to be and get too involved in what we think their personalities are...I want the Bosox to win, and ballplayers who can actually play the game are what helps the team the most. Trot's grit and manliness don't do much when he's sitting on the bench with a bulging disk.
            With all respect to VTSF, I think that there were genuine worries about Trot's future as a player and the management was brilliant to address them. And, I can easily see Pena being a far better player than Nixon at his peak. If he shares some of Trot's toughness and leadership skills, the team will be really lucky.
            "I throw him four wide ones, then try to pick him off first base." - Preacher Roe on pitching to Musial

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            • #51
              Befin98: Remind me about how we had too much pitching after Schilling, Wakefield, Timlin, Foulke, Wells and Tavarez are gone.

              You may be right and they want to get something now for Arroyo. I would rather have traded Wells for another outfielder, but I understand how difficult that was.
              "He's tougher than a railroad sandwich."
              "You'se Got The Eye Of An Eagle."

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              • #52
                Insert string of swearwords here...

                :grouchy

                Okay, I read ALL the posts, fighting my urge to "me, too" to Annie's postS.

                Where do I start?
                1. A decent pitcher, age less than 30, not injury prone, wanting to stay in Boston, WITH 20 QUALITY STARTS LAST YEAR.

                2. Did I say wants to stay in Boston? No contract fight, just sign me up, I want to pitch.

                3. Trading a healthy PITCHER at the beginning of the season. Whose side is Theo on? There is no such thing as too many pitchers. (oh, great, Wells is starting today) WELLS!!!!!!!!!!

                4. Quoting Theo "We don't have a lot of power". What are Manny and Ortiz, chopped liver? They are still searching for that ball Ortiz hit over everything.
                ps-JUST EXACTLY WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE POWER, THEO????

                5. Treating Arroyo like this is wrong, it is just wrong. Every baseball player is going to file this away under "Epstein is a robot with no heart."

                6. To those who say Arroyo needs to make way for Papelbon, the DL list can get too full, too fast. Remember Tek and Nomah?

                7. Can Schilling pull his weight this year? Or is he knocking people down to cover his lack of control?

                8. As to the speculation that Trot will be traded.. :grouchy

                9. I am not feeling friendly to Theo right now. :grouchy
                10. Theo must believe that guy that is trying to tell us there is no civil war. ANY team that has Wells as a starting pitcher has no business trading a healthy pitcher under 30 with 20 quality starts last season. :grouchy

                HEY THEO! TRADE TROT AND TEK TO NY, WHYDON'TCHA?

                Note: I was prevented from using more "unsmilies".
                Last edited by CuriousBoston; 03-21-2006, 05:47 AM.
                Varitek=Future Red Sox Manager
                Boston Boxer - a Real Hero

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                • #53
                  Here's another angle: Arroyo expressed (albeit mildly) dissatisfaction with the turnover in the roster. He said something in his postgame interview Sunday about how sorry he was to see so many familiar teammates go, and how hard it was going to be to get used to all the new infielders, and he hinted at how he was uncomfortable with how the offseason moves shook out.

                  Next day -- yer outta here.

                  I grant that the deal couldn't have been engineered overnight, but he probably had hinted at his dissatisfaction before this. It's not a matter of Arroyo being a malcontent -- he wanted to stay (unlike Wells, who refused to even take part in the team photo). But he expressed discontent with the bosses. Just makes the conspiracy theorist in me wonder......

                  A cat may not look at the king.

                  Here's food for thought: Varitek has expressed the same concerns on occasion. 3 years left in his deal. Hmmm.

                  ---
                  For the record, I never really cottoned to Theo. You can look over my posts from the last few years to confirm this if you think I'm just saying this today because I'm not particularly happy. I didn't particularly mourn his departure nor did I hail his return. I think the World Series win, as transcendentally blissful as it was, was in great part due to a fortunate alignment of circumstance as much to any wheeling and dealing by the front office.
                  --Annie
                  Be civil to all, sociable to many, familiar with few, friend to one, enemy to none. -Benjamin Franklin, statesman, author, and inventor (1706-1790)
                  Remember Yellowdog
                  ABNY

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by FlashGordon
                    You won't find many around here who will defend Duquette in a comparison with Theo.
                    And Lou Gorman, who was FAR worse than Duquette.

                    Still, there were plenty of moves that made fans uncomfortable at the time (ditching Cabrera for Renteria, then dealing Hanley Ramirez come to mind), that we were willing to wait and see the final outcome before passing judgement. In fact, nearly all trades have to be approached with some cautious enthusiasm by the fans, otherwise they wouldn't be fans. But when a trade goes bad there is a natural tendency to look back at the time of the acquisition and selectively pick out the negative voices that say, I told you so.

                    BK Kim was certainly one of those you could see coming. His numbers were not that impressive and he'd already shown that he was inconsistent in pressure situations. That was an expensive one. Renteria wasn't cheap either, but the bigger question is which was the worse move: acquiring him, or ditching him for little return only one year later. The book isn't closed on David Wells, either. That's one that could very well explode if Boomer's mouth and back go into simultaneous spasms. And we still have yet to see Beckett earn his paycheck.
                    BK's numbers weren't that good? At the time he signed the contract, he was coming off a year with a 3.31 ERA. His ERA the two previous years? 2.04 and 2.94. He was a young, better, and more versitile starter who was younger and more versitile than the one Theo's now getting crap from some for trading.

                    Cabrera isn't that great a player, but fans latched onto the 2004 team like crazy. He was the perfect peice at that point...but long term?

                    Renteria...they overpaid him, saw the problem, and fixed it. The Sox are better with Crisp and Gonzalez than they would have been with Renteria and whoever they'd find to play CF (Roberts? Stern?).

                    And Wells? He won 15 games last year, and is on an incentive laden contract. How can he NOT work out for Boston? If he sucks, they cut him and replace him.

                    I think many Sox fans are still trying to figure out what the long-term strategy is here. It certainly doesn't seem to be improving upon the previous administration's track record of contentious splits with fan favorites.
                    I think the problem that 99% of fans have no idea how to build a team. They latch onto their favorites and the familiar and get complacent. A lot of Red Sox fans would have been happy to sign the entire 2004 team to long-term deals and keep the party going. The only problem with that is that in 2006-2010, the Red Sox would, well...suck.

                    I think the long term plan is taking interesting shape...kind of a "rebuild while competing", with a mix of vets and youth. Beckett, Crisp, Papelbon, Hansen, Lester, Youkillis, and now Pena are a core of young players that will only be added to as the older guys move on or retire.
                    Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by VTSoxFan
                      Here's another angle: Arroyo expressed (albeit mildly) dissatisfaction with the turnover in the roster. He said something in his postgame interview Sunday about how sorry he was to see so many familiar teammates go, and how hard it was going to be to get used to all the new infielders, and he hinted at how he was uncomfortable with how the offseason moves shook out.

                      Next day -- yer outta here.

                      I grant that the deal couldn't have been engineered overnight, but he probably had hinted at his dissatisfaction before this. It's not a matter of Arroyo being a malcontent -- he wanted to stay (unlike Wells, who refused to even take part in the team photo). But he expressed discontent with the bosses. Just makes the conspiracy theorist in me wonder......
                      The Reds and Red Sox have been talking about an outfielder-for-pitcher trade for ages...the Sox just wanted them to take Clement. When it became obvious that wouldn't happen, they went with their next most expendable pitcher...Arroyo was gonna end up being a long man out of the pen this year in Boston, so they could afford to move him.

                      A cat may not look at the king.

                      Here's food for thought: Varitek has expressed the same concerns on occasion. 3 years left in his deal. Hmmm.
                      Not gonna happen. Arroyo is no Varitek, and besides, the Red Sox knowingly gave Varitek a contract that'd make him nearly impossible to trade.

                      For the record, I never really cottoned to Theo. You can look over my posts from the last few years to confirm this if you think I'm just saying this today because I'm not particularly happy. I didn't particularly mourn his departure nor did I hail his return. I think the World Series win, as transcendentally blissful as it was, was in great part due to a fortunate alignment of circumstance as much to any wheeling and dealing by the front office.
                      Well, they were close in 2004 (due in part to the additions made in the off-season), then went out and filled thier two biggest holes....a #1 starter and a closer. Sure, what happens on the field is what truely decides who wins and loses, but the front office set the team up pretty well for 2004.

                      And hey, if you don't like Theo, that's certainly your right...the guys no saint, and like every GM, he's made deals that don't work out.

                      But I grew up in the Gorman era (ugh), and became an adult in the Duquette era, and I sure like what I'm seeing now compared to both of those times.
                      Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

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                      • #56
                        Wow, can't believe what I'm seeing - a divided Red Sox Nation.

                        From my outside perspective, Theo is a good GM. He's made his gaffes, but what GM hasn't? As others have pointed out, Theo has done a much, much better job than his predecessors. Three consecutive postseason appearances, a World Series title? What else could you ask for? He makes the tough decisions and rises about sentimentality like a GM should. A sentimental GM will not be able to build a successful team.

                        As for this trade in particular, it makes a tremendous amount of sense for the Sox for the following reasons:

                        - Arroyo would never be more than a back of the rotation guy for the Sox. The longer he's buried in that role, the more his trade value will go down. Theo made the most of his value to benefit the team in other areas.

                        - This removes a roadblock to Papelbon getting a real shot at the rotation. He's undoubtedly first in line now, and Papelbon could be a fixture in the rotation by the end of the season. With Arroyo there, there would be more uncertainty regarding Papelbon's role.

                        - Arroyo gets a chance to be a front of the rotation starter on a team that desperately needs his services, while the Sox get a young player, with good potential and a ton of power that adds needed depth to the OF. This is a very pragmatic move by management, it shows that they realize that Nixon almost always has issues and that the OF depth is thin. Most importantly, Pena is terrific against lefthanders. Nixon is dreadful against lefthanders. The Sox lineup against lefties is not good - it was pretty common knowledge in the past few years that the Sox were very vulnerable to lefties. There is reason that Randy Johnson was 5-0 against the Sox last year. The team should now be a lot better against lefties.

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                        • #57
                          The OF depth the Sox got in this deal not only provides them with a replacement plan for Nixon, but also allows them to trade non-roster invitee Dustin Mohr for a prospect or something else helpful, which I expect to happen before opening day.

                          The Sox front office is smart. Look at the little things they do with non-roster invitees, offering arbitration for their FA's, and making low-cost acquisitions (Gonzalez, Petegine, Mohr) that can either help the team or become trade bait down the line.
                          Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

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                          • #58
                            This trade makes good sense for both teams.

                            The Reds have been really thin in the pitching dept for a long time. They get a #3 starter who has thus far stayed healthy. Their track record has been a mixed bag of reclamation projects, and actually getting a decent pitcher who doesn't fit that mold will be good for them. And as noted, his trade value may have seen its peak. This winter has been a drought for pitching help across the board.

                            The Red Sox get another stump-legged outfielder who can hit the ball a mile. (You guys have always liked that kind!) He will be in a great platoon position with Trot, mashing against lefties. He is a good guy to have around, and I have seen him play in Cincinnati and in A-Ball, and he can really turn some good plays in the field.
                            "Someone asked me if I took steroids. I said, 'No. I had a contract with Wheaties.'"
                            --Bob Feller

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                            • #59
                              Everyone is talking about how Willy Mo Pena spells the end for Trot and I just don't see it. Sure the guys got some power but a .248 career average? The way I see it, Willy rides the bench providing some depth and if Trot goes down then they might give him a shot.

                              Yes, Pena is young, he could develop and maybe his BA would go up for a full season, and maybe the Sox have ideas for him being a long term replacement for Trot but not this year if Trot is healthy.
                              "As I grew up, I knew that as a building (Fenway Park) was on the level of Mount Olympus, the Pyramid at Giza, the nation's capitol, the czar's Winter Palace, and the Louvre — except, of course, that is better than all those inconsequential places." - Bart Giamatti

                              You go through The Sporting News of the last 100 years and you will find two things are always true. You never have enough pitchers, and nobody ever made money.
                              -Don Fehr

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by YOUgodofwalks
                                Everyone is talking about how Willy Mo Pena spells the end for Trot and I just don't see it. Sure the guys got some power but a .248 career average? The way I see it, Willy rides the bench providing some depth and if Trot goes down then they might give him a shot.

                                Yes, Pena is young, he could develop and maybe his BA would go up for a full season, and maybe the Sox have ideas for him being a long term replacement for Trot but not this year if Trot is healthy.
                                I don't think anyone is saying that Pena will replace Nixon THIS year. He'll platoon with him this year, but there was a very good chance that Boston wasn't going to resign Nixon after this year anyway (he'll be 32 and has been injury prone), and this sets them up with a potential replacement who will be under their control at least until 2008.

                                And Pena hasn't hit for average, yet...but he's 24...an age at which Nixon had 31 career at bats. Given proper support and playing time, he could at least hit enough to keep his 40+ homer power in the lineup.

                                I like Nixon, have since Boston drafted him in 1993...but general managers don't get to be sentimental about players, that's the job of the fans. If the Sox brought back Damon and Nixon on long-term deals, they'd be on the hook in a couple years with a bunch of old, broken down players.
                                Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

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