Bronson Arroyo traded to Reds for Willy Mo Pena

[FlashGordon]

Bronson pitched 7 innings of 3-hit ball vs. the Red Sox in the last Red Sox pre-season game. Yes, we will see where things stand at the ASB.

[SoxSon]

With regards to the loyalty card, just because someone says they want to stay with Boston doesn't mean we should just keep them around.

Things are slightly complicated, pesky, by the perception that Boston suggested that they'd like to keep Arroyo around, too. I agree...we have to do what's best for the team. But I also think the way the deal went down lacked integrity.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Sp

with the trade of Arroyo Boston goes from 7 pitchers to 6 and their is speculation of Papelbon being their closer which brings them down to 5 not to mention that shilling is questionable and so is clement Wells is also getting older

[pesky6]

Well, I just got back from vacation and happened to read all of the posts from this thread. . . there are a lot of good points, and I wanted to chime in with some of my own--

With regards to the loyalty card, just because someone says they want to stay with Boston doesn't mean we should just keep them around. The idea is to improve the club. None of us knows if picking up Wily Mo Pena will do it, but let's be honest--Arroyo wasn't exactly lighting it up around here. I too have an adoration for the 2004 team, but that was almost a year and a half ago. If we want to remain contenders, we have to give up on the loyalty thing. Sure, Arroyo loved it in Boston--he had built a similar iconic status like that certiain CF in New York did, and he was adored by fans, but that's not a reason to keep someone around.

A lot of people have asked, "Why didn't we trade Wells or Clement?" Wells has made it perfectly clear that he wanted to go to the west coast and no where else, so that wouldn't have happened. Clement wouldn't have worked out, either. Remember, we're paying the salary difference in Arroyo's contract--imagine if, with the big salary we're paying Clement, we had to pay the difference in his salary? That wouldn't have made any sense, either. It's bad enough that we had to with Renteria's.

In Trot Nixon's case, I hope people can see that, at 24, Pena has a much bigger upside than Nixon, at 32. Hey, I love the guy, too, but as much as I admire Trot's hustle and work ethic, he's been way too injury-prone these last few years. I think Pena (or Crisp) would be a suitable replacement in the OF.

As far as Theo goes, of the transactions that didn't pan out, are the players we gave up doing any better in their new surroundings? Hillenbrand is ok, but I'd rather have Youks at 3rd. Sanchez has been solid, and I'd probably want to see him as our everyday 2B, but hindsight is 20/20. Considering how demanding the Red Sox must be as an organization and considering how young Theo still is, I think he's done a great job as our GM.

[Mariano_Rivera]

true i have`nt whatched their gmes much

[SoxSon]

their is a lot of questions about the lineup questions but not really problems how will Beckett handle the media for example also I don`t put much stock in Spring Training especially this year with half of the star players in the league of at the WBC so all the pitchers look sharp

I'm more concerned about Beckett's blisters than the media.
Also, Schilling's velocity can tell you a lot. That's got nothing to do with who is at the plate.

[Mariano_Rivera]

division

personally I think bostons biggest strength ois their seto man who is one of the best in the league not to mention the 1-2 combo of ortiz and ramirez

[Mariano_Rivera]

pitchers

Schilling seems pretty sharp this Spring. His velocity is up, he's had time to get in shape for the season, and he seems to have his focus. He seems to me like the kind of older pitcher who could bounce back reasonably this season.
Foulke, on the other hand...well, I'll buy that when he's still pitching in May.

their is a lot of questions about the lineup questions but not really problems how will Beckett handle the media for example also I don`t put much stock in Spring Training especially this year with half of the star players in the league of at the WBC so all the pitchers look sharp

[SoxSon]

Hi I`m new I`m a diehard Yankee fan but not a Boston hater and I`ve been wondering how will Schilling and Foulke do Foulke missed out most of the year and when he was pitching he wasn`t great and schillng though he had some great games against New York he was VERY inconsistent

Schilling seems pretty sharp this Spring. His velocity is up, he's had time to get in shape for the season, and he seems to have his focus. He seems to me like the kind of older pitcher who could bounce back reasonably this season.
Foulke, on the other hand...well, I'll buy that when he's still pitching in May.

[Mariano_Rivera]

Schilling/Foulke?

Hi I`m new I`m a diehard Yankee fan but not a Boston hater and I`ve been wondering how will Schilling and Foulke do Foulke missed out most of the year and when he was pitching he wasn`t great and schillng though he had some great games against New York he was VERY inconsistent

[Mariano_Rivera]

Schilling/Foulke?

I`m knew hi I know I spelled foulke wrong ( probably because I`m a diehard Yankees fan but not a Bosox hater) but I`ve been wondering how these two players are going to come back schilling did horrible last year and foulke missed most of the year

[SoxSon]

I believe Phil was throwing the knuckleball since very early in his career, I don't know about Joe though.

I don't believe Joe really perfected his knuckleball until he was with Atlanta, so he must have had 5 or 6 years in the majors without it.

[DoubleX]

Speaking of Wake, which other pitches does he throw? Also, how long's he been a knuckleballer?

I think that with the Niekro brothers (Phil & Joe), they'd done this to extend their pitching careers.

I believe Phil was throwing the knuckleball since very early in his career, I don't know about Joe though.

[SoxSon]

I don't believe I called him that at all last year and those that did I believe it was due to his consistancy last year while the other pitchers had their struggles. He isn't the ace but he was the anchor in the rotation.

You beat me to this, efin. As I recollect, the term "ace" was used last year with Wake as a kind of unfortunate comment on our pitching staff as a whole, not as a reflection of his individual potency.

[efin98]

And you've completely side-stepped my point. Clement was our #1 starter. Bronson's were comparable (perhaps better by some counts) despite being #4. That flies entirely in the face of your claim that he couldn't crack the top 3, except for the worst teams.

Comparable to two others stated, but really three others doesn't help his case. Not when he was the fourth man in the rotation. Not when he has few years to compare to. The other guys can point to their past success or failures and say "it was an improvement" or "it was a down year". Arroyo really can't, not with only one complete year as a starter.

He was 3rd in wins, 2nd in IP, 3rd in ERA, 2nd in losses, 2nd in hits allowed, 1st in runs, 2nd in HRs, 4th in Ks, 2nd in BBs, 2nd in HBP.

Overall he was the 3rd best pitcher on the staff at the 4th or 5th spot in the rotation. On any other team he wouldn't be the 3rd guy, not with those numbers. Sorry, but that's at least a 4th or 5th starter to me.

One more thing, I don't want anyone to think I'm Wakefield-bashing. He is a useful tool to have in the shed, even if the knuckler can be a fickle mistress. Still, he does meet the criteria of over-rated. I've heard all kinds of appraisals that have had him as our #3 or #2 starter.

It depends on where your view his value and how high up on your roster you place that value. To me he is one of the most important pitchers on the staff. Only Schilling and Wells have better success over their careers as starters and only Timlin have hasbetter success as relievers with Boston. The fact that he can close games(22 in his career, one time closer), be a spot starter, a long reliever, a regular reliever, and a full time starter is something that the team has to keep. That skill may be overrated to some, but I think tha verstatility is too much of a good thing to not have...not with their bullpen woes two of the past three years.

At one point last year, people were carelessly tossing around the label "ace". I wonder how many more fans would have cried foul if Wakefield had been dealt.

I don't believe I called him that at all last year and those that did I believe it was due to his consistancy last year while the other pitchers had their struggles. He isn't the ace but he was the anchor in the rotation.