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  • Originally posted by Therwil Flyer View Post
    via rotoworld:


    That is a lot for a 32 year old coming off a down year! At that price I think I'd go in a different direction. Hope he gets a 4 year deal somewhere else. Pass! Also, someone needs to explain Ben the concept of buying low. Madness.
    hooray! we agree! what the @#$* is Ben thinking? We are on the verge of getting him 3/39. He was looking for 3/30, so we threw in an extra 9M? Idiots (and not the good kind)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Boston Boxer View Post
      hooray! we agree! what the @#$* is Ben thinking? We are on the verge of getting him 3/39. He was looking for 3/30, so we threw in an extra 9M? Idiots (and not the good kind)
      Awsdasdjoiasud90asjdoiqjho987ze98231oifwq!!!!!

      What the hell? And 2/26 for Torii Hunter was too much? I would have given him 2/30 in that case. ESPN says the following about Victorino on their top 50 fa list for 2012.

      "Victorino's bat speed has slowed to the point where he's best utilized as a fourth outfielder who can fill any of the three outfield spots and come off the bench as a right-handed hitter, since even in his prime he was never very good hitting from the left side.
      He has an above-average arm and is still an asset on the bases despite the occasional boneheaded play -- it's almost surprising how good he is at reading pitchers' moves when you consider how poor his instincts look at times. He's a one-year-deal player at this point, but the lack of center-field options might encourage some team to give him two or three years to be a starter."
      I know you're watching, Si. Bu.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Boston Boxer View Post
        hooray! we agree! what the @#$* is Ben thinking? We are on the verge of getting him 3/39. He was looking for 3/30, so we threw in an extra 9M? Idiots (and not the good kind)
        I told you we'd agree on something ;-) But really, when the market for a player blows up beyond what even the player initially wanted, that is the point where you step away and look for other solutions. It's confirmed: "Sox have agreed on a 3/39 deal with Victorino". I think this is a really bad contract. It makes me wonder if they have learned anything from the past years. Again, madness!

        For real, 3/39 for Shane Victorino?!?! Are you kidding me. This is a guy should have been signed to a two year deal. 3/39 is a f-ing joke!
        Therwil Flyer
        #firedavedombrowski
        Last edited by Therwil Flyer; 12-04-2012, 03:54 PM.
        Watching Derek Jeter make 40 defensive plays and then watching Adam Everett make 40 defensive plays at the same position is sort of like watching video of Barbara Bush dancing at the White House, and then watching Demi Moore dancing in Striptease. (Bill James)

        Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power. If he can continue to hit .260 or so, he'll be useful, and he probably has a future as a backup infielder. (Keith Law)

        Comment


        • Why Shane Victorino?

          The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Therwil Flyer View Post
            It's confirmed: "Sox have agreed on a 3/39 deal with Victorino". I think this is a really bad contract. It makes me wonder if they have learned anything from the past years. Again, madness!

            For real, 3/39 for Shane Victorino?!?! Are you kidding me. This is a guy should have been signed to a two year deal. 3/39 is a f-ing joke!
            Yikes, this is a terrible deal.

            I don't understand why they went for him at roughly 12.5 million per. While he hit lefties fairly well, Victorino's 2012 hitting stats were unimpressive; .255/.321/.383 – WOBA .310 fWAR 3.3 and VS RHP as LHH he hit .229/.296/.333 while VS LHP as RHH .he hit 323/.388/.518 I undertand he’s a 3 time gold glove winner and will be good defensively for us in RF but to me he's not worth the money. We’ll have him for ages 32-34, not terribly old but where his hitting has slipped this past year this is a concern to me.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Therwil Flyer View Post
              I told you we'd agree on something ;-) But really, when the market for a player blows up beyond what even the player initially wanted, that is the point where you step away and look for other solutions. It's confirmed: "Sox have agreed on a 3/39 deal with Victorino". I think this is a really bad contract. It makes me wonder if they have learned anything from the past years. Again, madness!

              For real, 3/39 for Shane Victorino?!?! Are you kidding me. This is a guy should have been signed to a two year deal. 3/39 is a f-ing joke!
              Yes, I wanted Victorino, but not at those parameters. That is in fact madness. One NL scout told crasnick: "You know a lot of deals surprise us, but this one shocked us.".

              I think the Red Sox just wanted Victorino and with the Indians pushing for him, they had to up the offer and did not want to wait until the price drops. They should have. Hunter 2/26, Victorino 3/39. Unbelievable. Apparently they just learned not to sign anybody to long contracts. That is all. Doesnt prevent them for stupid contracts.
              I know you're watching, Si. Bu.

              Comment


              • http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_mlb&c_id=mlb

                The Sox have signed Shane Victorino.

                Another piece of news, the Nationals signed Dan Haren, so scratch him off the list of possible starters for this year.

                Comment


                • I think Victorino can help the Sox. Sure it's an overpay, but it's a short-term (ish) overpay, so really, no real harm done.

                  Why I like him:

                  - He's a solid enough hitter who switch hits (gives the Sox some options there).

                  - He can play CF if/when Jacoby Ellsbury gets traded/hurt.

                  - He runs well (nice SB/CS ratios)

                  - He plays plus defense

                  Sure, he's overpaid, but it's not the kind of overpaid that could cripple the team in any way. And he's not blocking any sure-thing prospects. Kalish will still be in the mix next year and should get plenty of at bats if deserving. Guys like Jackie Bradley and Bryce Brentz are a ways off...by the time they're ready, Victorino can be traded, will make a good 4th OF, or you can just cut him loose.

                  Remember, the Sox can afford to overpay to keep deals short. They gave Victorino and Napoli a bit more dollar-wise than they may have wanted, but they kept them both to 3 years. And even after adding close to $80 million in commitments over the next 3 years (roughly $26 million per year), they're still WAY behind any Red Sox team in recent memory, payroll-wise. They have a ton of flexibility and spending power...and they'd be crazy not to use some of it for short-term improvements that don't involve trading away any talent and that don't block young players who are major league ready.
                  Visit my card site at Mike D's Baseball Card Page.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Zoltan View Post
                    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_mlb&c_id=mlb

                    The Sox have signed Shane Victorino.

                    Another piece of news, the Nationals signed Dan Haren, so scratch him off the list of possible starters for this year.
                    ya, the Sox said 1/13 was too much. Strange decisions being made

                    Comment


                    • another prediction...I think they will trade Ellsbury now. I say sign Ross or Hamilton (no more than 4 years) and trade Ellsbury, Salty and maybe Doubront for a #1 arm *EDIT* now its all over NESN and Twitter.
                      Boston Boxer
                      US Air Force Retired
                      Last edited by Boston Boxer; 12-04-2012, 07:01 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Boston Boxer View Post
                        another prediction...I think they will trade Ellsbury now. I say sign Ross or Hamilton (no more than 4 years) and trade Ellsbury, Salty and maybe Doubront for a #1 arm *EDIT* now its all over NESN and Twitter.
                        I think this prediction will come true!

                        According the Providence Journal which mentions that according to Buster Olney, the Red Sox are laying the groundwork for trading Ellsbury for a starting pitcher.

                        http://blogs.providencejournal.com/s...bury-deal.html

                        This might partially help explain the signing of Victorino who could play CF if Ellsbury is traded, though I still believe the contract for Victorino is an over-pay.

                        Some random thoughts; Perhaps the most logical team might to trade with would be the Phillies who have pitching and need OF help, but who might they trade?

                        Not sure if they are but if the Phillies are in play, I highly doubt they’d trade Hamels and tend to doubt the Sox FO wants to take on Cliff Lee’s contract 13:$25M, 14:$25M, 15:$25M, 16:$27.5M club option with $12.5M buyout.

                        I suppose Halladay could make some sense, though he’s very pricey and wasn’t all that good last year, but it would probably only be for one year.

                        His contract shows 13:$20M, 14:$20M option; 2014 option guaranteed with all of the following: 225 IP in 2013, 415 IP in 2012-13, and Halladay is not on disabled list at end of 2013 season. accoring to Cots contracts.

                        Halladay slipped a lot last season from having 4 years in a row with an under 3 ERA to a 4.49 ERA, and having at least a 6.5 fWAR the past 4 years to a 2.5 in 2012 so if they traded for him, I’d expect the Phillies to pay a portion of his contract, probably half. But Halladay also has no trade protection so I doubt Halladay is the target.

                        Then there’s Kyle Kendrick a RHP who is 28 years old and is an okay but not great pitcher, in 2012 his stats were ERA 3.90 WHIP 1.274, SO/BB 2.37, FIP 4.32, xFIP 4.31, fWAR 1.2, and he gives up a lot of HR’s but he doesn’t make a huge amount of money at 4.5 million in 2013 and is arbitration eligible in 2014.

                        I wouldn’t be that thrilled if that’s who they got for Ells. But Ellsbury's value is low right now so.....

                        Still, looking at Kendricks splits, one intriguing thing about him was the 1st half of the season he had an ERA of 4.89, WHIP 1.481, SO/BB 1.90 but then greatly improved for the 2nd half where he had an ERA of 2.87 WHIP 1.060, SO/BB 3.11 so he has some potential.

                        Anyway the Phillies may not even be the team they trade with but if they are maybe Kendrick is a possibility, not sure.

                        Edit: Per Alex Spier:
                        a major league source said that no trade involving Ellsbury is imminent. Indeed, the source suggested that a deal involving Ellsbury this offseason isn’t inevitable.
                        http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/bos...-not-imminent/
                        Dogdaze
                        2004, 2007 & 2013
                        Last edited by Dogdaze; 12-04-2012, 08:54 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Keith law of espn:

                          "Shane Victorino's three-year, $39 million contract with the Boston Red Sox vaults to the top of the rankings of the worst contracts signed so far this offseason, giving him virtually the same total dollars that Angel Pagan -- a superior player -- will receive in a contract that's a year longer.

                          The Sox have now squandered a substantial amount of the payroll flexibility they obtained over the summer when they traded Adrian Gonzalez to the Los Angeles Dodgers just to rid themselves of two awful contracts, yet they have little to show for their recent spending spree.

                          Victorino is a platoon outfielder at this point, and paying him $13 million a year, even with the rapid salary escalation we're seeing this offseason, is mad as pants. His bat speed was noticeably slower in 2012, especially later in the season, and despite being a switch-hitter, he doesn't really hit right-handed pitching:

                          Against RHP
                          2012: .230/.295/.332
                          2011: .271/.333/.456
                          2010: .235/.306/.386

                          That's a .244/.311/.390 composite line over 1,388 plate appearances, and at age 32 he's extremely unlikely to suddenly learn how to hit from the left side. Victorino delivers the bulk of his value in the 150 or so plate appearances he gets against left-handed pitching each year and should be platooned against most right-handers, which means the Red Sox just paid $13 million a year for the equivalent of a fourth outfielder.

                          Victorino remains a good defensive outfielder, more due to his above-average arm and his foot speed than good reads on balls hit to him in center, and he can add value on the bases because he reads pitchers well, even though overall his instincts for the game are poor. He could handle center for a year if the Red Sox chose to trade Jacoby Ellsbury and wanted to give top prospect Jackie Bradley Jr. another full season in the minors before promoting him, and then slide to right or left, with Ryan Kalish in the other corner if he can stay healthy. But if Victorino plays mostly right field, he'll face a higher offensive standard, and they'll likely find themselves looking for a platoon partner for him sooner rather than later, while wondering what better values were available for the money they gave him."
                          I know you're watching, Si. Bu.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SwissRedSoxFan View Post
                            Keith law of espn:

                            "Shane Victorino's three-year, $39 million contract with the Boston Red Sox vaults to the top of the rankings of the worst contracts signed so far this offseason, giving him virtually the same total dollars that Angel Pagan -- a superior player -- will receive in a contract that's a year longer.

                            The Sox have now squandered a substantial amount of the payroll flexibility they obtained over the summer when they traded Adrian Gonzalez to the Los Angeles Dodgers just to rid themselves of two awful contracts, yet they have little to show for their recent spending spree.

                            Victorino is a platoon outfielder at this point, and paying him $13 million a year, even with the rapid salary escalation we're seeing this offseason, is mad as pants. His bat speed was noticeably slower in 2012, especially later in the season, and despite being a switch-hitter, he doesn't really hit right-handed pitching:

                            Against RHP
                            2012: .230/.295/.332
                            2011: .271/.333/.456
                            2010: .235/.306/.386

                            That's a .244/.311/.390 composite line over 1,388 plate appearances, and at age 32 he's extremely unlikely to suddenly learn how to hit from the left side. Victorino delivers the bulk of his value in the 150 or so plate appearances he gets against left-handed pitching each year and should be platooned against most right-handers, which means the Red Sox just paid $13 million a year for the equivalent of a fourth outfielder.

                            Victorino remains a good defensive outfielder, more due to his above-average arm and his foot speed than good reads on balls hit to him in center, and he can add value on the bases because he reads pitchers well, even though overall his instincts for the game are poor. He could handle center for a year if the Red Sox chose to trade Jacoby Ellsbury and wanted to give top prospect Jackie Bradley Jr. another full season in the minors before promoting him, and then slide to right or left, with Ryan Kalish in the other corner if he can stay healthy. But if Victorino plays mostly right field, he'll face a higher offensive standard, and they'll likely find themselves looking for a platoon partner for him sooner rather than later, while wondering what better values were available for the money they gave him."
                            I agree that this signing seems odd; an over-30 player coming off a poor year (which was a contract year). I think that this confirms my feeling that the Red Sox will not contend this year either.

                            There is still some favorable sentiment about Youk, which I don't understand. He was barely better with the White Sox than he was in Boston last year (you could look it up). I know it seems annoying for me to say it, but Bobby Valentine was right on the money about him.

                            The Red Sox are still, in my estimation, the modern version of the "Crybaby" Indians of 1940.

                            Comment


                            • You can look at this from whatever angle you want (and I have) but this is just a bad signing. Everything about it is just bad. My prediction is it won't haunt us (since we got Kalish, and JBJ and others ready soon) but it's a waste of money. hope I'm wrong, but this is really reverting to the old (as in bad) ways! Bad Ben!
                              Watching Derek Jeter make 40 defensive plays and then watching Adam Everett make 40 defensive plays at the same position is sort of like watching video of Barbara Bush dancing at the White House, and then watching Demi Moore dancing in Striptease. (Bill James)

                              Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power. If he can continue to hit .260 or so, he'll be useful, and he probably has a future as a backup infielder. (Keith Law)

                              Comment


                              • how many days before we sign Hamilton? I say we sign him by Monday. what say you?

                                Comment

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