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is omar vizquel the best defensive ss of all time

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  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Utter Chaos

    I think Ozzie was an excellent shortstop but is overated because of his flashy style. Omar is also an excellent shortstop and may be slightly underrated because he's often compared to Ozzie. Ozzie may have a slight edge in overall fielding ability but I feel it's a lot closer than people think. Omar will retire with a higher batting average, more home runs, more RBI's, and a higher fielding average than Ozzie and should deserve some HOF consideration.
    Vizquel's offensive numbers will look better on the surface because he played in the offensive-happy 90s, while much of Ozzie's career was in the offensive-depressed 80s. Vizquel benefitted from juiced balls, smaller ballparks, and thinner pitching staffs (thanks to two expansions), and not too mention lineups that featured some of the premier hitters of the day (Belle, Ramirez, Thome, Justice, Alomar, Williams, etc.). When it comes down to it, Ozzie was the better offensive player in the context of his league, but only by a light margin. His OPS+ is 87, while Vizquel's is 85. Ozzie also stole 580 bases, or 240 more than Vizquel. In sum, Vizquel is underrated, but Ozzie was the overall better player, and by some margin.
    Last edited by DoubleX; 02-08-2006, 10:10 AM.

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  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by Utter Chaos
    That's possibly true but Ozzie also played more games on artificial turf than Omar so he got better bounces.
    And grounders coming at him a LOT faster

    <I think Ozzie was an excellent shortstop but is overated because of his flashy style.>

    And Omar isn't?

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  • Utter Chaos
    replied
    Originally posted by RuthMayBond
    Could it have anything to do with the fact that Ozzie got to more batted balls, scorers have become more lenient,...?
    That's possibly true but Ozzie also played more games on artificial turf than Omar so he got better bounces. I was just pointing out to the poster who claimed he say Ozzie make less errors than Omar when in fact Ozzie has made over 100 more.

    I think Ozzie was an excellent shortstop but is overated because of his flashy style. Omar is also an excellent shortstop and may be slightly underrated because he's often compared to Ozzie. Ozzie may have a slight edge in overall fielding ability but I feel it's a lot closer than people think. Omar will retire with a higher batting average, more home runs, more RBI's, and a higher fielding average than Ozzie and should deserve some HOF consideration.

    I just know I enjoy watching Omar and Roberto turning double plays for the Tribe in the 90's.

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  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by Utter Chaos
    That's tough to do since Ozzie made 281 errors and Omar has only made 168. Omar also has a better fielding percentage .984 to .978.
    Could it have anything to do with the fact that Ozzie got to more batted balls, scorers have become more lenient,...?

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  • Utter Chaos
    replied
    Originally posted by Solair Wright
    Ozzie Smith is a better SS, and I saw him make less errors than Vizquel.
    That's tough to do since Ozzie made 281 errors and Omar has only made 168. Omar also has a better fielding percentage .984 to .978.

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  • sschirmer
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    Also Ozzie won his last GG in 1992, while Vizquel won his first in 1993. So Vizquel was the best defensive SS to come along in the span of that offseason? .
    That's great. I have to admire that type of perception.

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  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Edgartohof
    He was/is good though. In his younger days, he was touted as the best since Ozzie (who many/most consider the best defensive SS of all-time), which is a definite compliment to him, but he still falls considerably short.
    That's not really saying much considering their careers overlapped for 7 seasons, and their peaks separated by 5 years, at most.

    Also Ozzie won his last GG in 1992, while Vizquel won his first in 1993. So Vizquel was the best defensive SS to come along in the span of that offseason? Such comparisons really only work when there is significant time separating the two.

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  • DoubleX
    replied
    I like Vizquel as a player. If not for the emergence of a totally new breed of SS during his career (A-Rod, Jeter, Nomar, Tejada), Vizquel's career would be put into better perspective, and I'd say he'd have a very decent shot at the Hall (whereas I think it's pretty unlikely now given his peers).

    However, I don't think he is the best defensive SS of all time. Is he up there, certainly, but I'm not sure how far. I am pretty sure though that whomever else is up there with Vizquel, they are all standing in line behind Ozzie Smith.

    Also, I would not count Gold Gloves as a great way to measure defensive ability. All too often they are given out on reputation and a player collects a few more than he usually deserves. Two examples: In 1999, Rafael Palmeiro won the AL GG at 1B, despite the fact he played just 28 games in teh field, and 135 at DH. So what does that say about Vizquel's '99 award if the writers are giving the award to a DH? The next example is Derek Jeter. He has won the last two AL GG's in the void created by A-Rod's position switch and Vizquel's league switch. But I think few would seriously argue that Jeter is a GG caliber SS, much less a multiple GG winning SS.
    Last edited by DoubleX; 02-07-2006, 12:59 PM.

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  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by sschirmer
    At times I have thought of Omar as a bit over-rated, but this thread makes it seem as if he was defensively inept. I certainly don't think that's the case.
    That's not it at all. I just wanted him rated honestly, not this stuff that he was the best ever and deserved ten Gold Gloves

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  • sschirmer
    replied
    At times I have thought of Omar as a bit over-rated, but this thread makes it seem as if he was defensively inept. I certainly don't think that's the case.

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  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by sschirmer
    I have to say, I spent a lot of time watching Larkin here, and defensively, I would have to take Omar over Barry.
    I've got Larkin in the slot just above Omar, and Omar will probably pass him within a year or two. And the last question was in the 90s, and Omar has continued to add to his career value this decade while Larkin has not.

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  • sschirmer
    replied
    I have to say, I spent a lot of time watching Larkin here, and defensively, I would have to take Omar over Barry.

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  • RuthMayBond
    replied
    Originally posted by johnny
    Who was a better defensive SS than Omar in the 90's anyway?
    It was kinda after the time of Ripken/ Guillen/ Fernandez/ Trammell/ Burleson so he didn't have much competition other than Larkin

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  • johnny
    replied
    Who was a better defensive SS than Omar in the 90's anyway?

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  • sschirmer
    replied
    I would say that he was certainly the best defensive SS on the Indians in the late 1990s. :gt

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