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I've come up with a solution to the name/logo controversy

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  • I've come up with a solution to the name/logo controversy

    For many years the Indians name and logo has been an issue.

    Well I've come up with a creative solution.

    The first part would be to acquire the rights to the name Barons, which has a history in Cleveland - it was used for several hockey teams in the past (several AHL teams and one NHL team). Yes it's also the name of the White Sox' AA club, but the name has a rich history in Cleveland too and that is what counts.

    The second part would come in the altering the team colors - the current colors are joined by orange from the Browns and gold from the Cavs, with the shade of red used altered to wine (also used by the Cavs).

    This new branding would honor Cleveland's entire sports history.
    The playoffs should expand eventually, but only if MLB itself expands.

    See my blog for more info.

  • #2
    I'd be opposed to your solution because I would like to see Cleveland's hockey team take the name and logo and colors of the old AHL Barons and play under all of those. I am 100% opposed to changing the name "Indians" and ditching Chief Wahoo.

    But... if it ever did happen that ownership &/or MLB cravenly caved to SJW pressure... I'd call them the Cleveland Cannons because it's alliterative, it's not being used by any major league sports team and because the City has, or once had an armory downtown. (Grays Armory home of the former militia the Cleveland Grays, which sent the city's first fighting men to the Union's Grand Army of the Republic to fight in the Civil War.) The City also has the Soldiers and Sailors Civil War memorial on Public Square, commemorating the 10,000 men Cuyahoga County sent to fight in the Civil War.

    I just discovered that at Grays Armory, they have the first Confederate cannon captured by Union forces in the whole Civil War on display there. I didn't even know that when I typed the above!
    Last edited by Calif_Eagle; 04-13-2017, 03:38 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't think the name's controversial anymore, but I think Chief Wahoo's day is over and he needs to be discontinued. Wahoo had his day and hos time has passed. Twenty years ago I thought the arguments against Wahoo were overblown, but I no longer do. I see a certain section of Cleveland fandom that acts like it is petrified of change and I find their hysteria to be laughable. When I was growing up in the Cleveland area in the 1970s, Wahoo wasn't emphasized much by the club. With MLB wanting to see the end of Wahoo I think his days are numbered.

      Indians always seemed like a silly name to ne because there isn't much in the way of Native American history in the Cleveland area. Native Americans had a much more significant history in the Ohio River and Miami Rivers regions.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
        I don't think the name's controversial anymore, but I think Chief Wahoo's day is over and he needs to be discontinued. Wahoo had his day and hos time has passed. Twenty years ago I thought the arguments against Wahoo were overblown, but I no longer do. I see a certain section of Cleveland fandom that acts like it is petrified of change and I find their hysteria to be laughable. When I was growing up in the Cleveland area in the 1970s, Wahoo wasn't emphasized much by the club. With MLB wanting to see the end of Wahoo I think his days are numbered.

        Indians always seemed like a silly name to ne because there isn't much in the way of Native American history in the Cleveland area. Native Americans had a much more significant history in the Ohio River and Miami Rivers regions.
        I am a native Clevelander and also grew up in the City in the 1960's and 1970's... I remember when Russell Means and AIM (American Indian Movement) were actively protesting outside Cleveland Stadium under the Chief Wahoo sign on the downtown side of the bleacher section. This was in the 1970's and may have been why Tribe management (probably Mileti and Paul at that time. I always wished Steinbrenner had bought them then, but what can you do...) was soft pedaling the Chief at that time.

        Just wanted to comment on that. I support the Chief and the name "Indians" 100 %, and you are OK with him being retired and that's fine. We all have our right to our own opinions. Didn't want to argue about that. Just was recalling the Means protests at a time when he was a relatively large figure the media focused on.

        Love the name "Ed Tarbusz". I was a "Soul Man" fan on the WJW Channel 8 Big Chuck and Hoolihan late movie too lol.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
          Indians always seemed like a silly name to ne because there isn't much in the way of Native American history in the Cleveland area. Native Americans had a much more significant history in the Ohio River and Miami Rivers regions.
          From the Indians' website...
          Initially known as the Blues (1901) and Broncos (1902), Cleveland's nickname became Naps, in honor of [Napoleon] Lajoie, in 1903 . . . . . Lajoie's departure, following the 1914 season, prompted a name change for the Cleveland franchise. On January 17, two Cleveland newspapers (The Leader and The Plain Dealer) reported that Indians had been chosen to replace Naps. The Plain Dealer said, "President Somers invited the Cleveland baseball writers to make the selection. The title of Indians was their choice, it having been one of the names applied to the old National League club of Cleveland many years ago."
          X
          Archie Bunker: All I can tell you, Edith, is I'm surprised at you! Dragging me off to a moving picture like that! It was absolutely disgusting!
          Edith Bunker: Well, I'm sorry, Archie, how was I to know? I thought it was a religious picture, "Cardinal Knowledge!"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Calif_Eagle View Post
            I am a native Clevelander and also grew up in the City in the 1960's and 1970's... I remember when Russell Means and AIM (American Indian Movement) were actively protesting outside Cleveland Stadium under the Chief Wahoo sign on the downtown side of the bleacher section. This was in the 1970's and may have been why Tribe management (probably Mileti and Paul at that time. I always wished Steinbrenner had bought them then, but what can you do...) was soft pedaling the Chief at that time.

            Just wanted to comment on that. I support the Chief and the name "Indians" 100 %, and you are OK with him being retired and that's fine. We all have our right to our own opinions. Didn't want to argue about that. Just was recalling the Means protests at a time when he was a relatively large figure the media focused on.

            Love the name "Ed Tarbusz". I was a "Soul Man" fan on the WJW Channel 8 Big Chuck and Hoolihan late movie too lol.
            I lived on the west side and don't think I ever entered the Stadium by the Chief Wahoo sign. The only time I remember seeing it was on the extremely rare occasion that we were riding westbound on 90.

            I was pretty young when Hoolihan and Big Chuck were on Friday nights. I have a lot more memories of Big Chuck and Little John.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Calif_Eagle View Post
              I am a native Clevelander and also grew up in the City in the 1960's and 1970's... I remember when Russell Means and AIM (American Indian Movement) were actively protesting outside Cleveland Stadium under the Chief Wahoo sign on the downtown side of the bleacher section. This was in the 1970's and may have been why Tribe management (probably Mileti and Paul at that time. I always wished Steinbrenner had bought them then, but what can you do...) was soft pedaling the Chief at that time.

              Just wanted to comment on that. I support the Chief and the name "Indians" 100 %, and you are OK with him being retired and that's fine. We all have our right to our own opinions. Didn't want to argue about that. Just was recalling the Means protests at a time when he was a relatively large figure the media focused on.

              Love the name "Ed Tarbusz". I was a "Soul Man" fan on the WJW Channel 8 Big Chuck and Hoolihan late movie too lol.
              I lived on the west side and don't think I ever entered the Stadium by the Chief Wahoo sign. The only time I remember seeing it was on the extremely rare occasion that we were riding westbound on 90.

              I was pretty young when Hoolihan and Big Chuck were on Friday nights. I have a lot more memories of Big Chuck and Little John.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gary Dunaier View Post
                From the Indians' website...
                Initially known as the Blues (1901) and Broncos (1902), Cleveland's nickname became Naps, in honor of [Napoleon] Lajoie, in 1903 . . . . . Lajoie's departure, following the 1914 season, prompted a name change for the Cleveland franchise. On January 17, two Cleveland newspapers (The Leader and The Plain Dealer) reported that Indians had been chosen to replace Naps. The Plain Dealer said, "President Somers invited the Cleveland baseball writers to make the selection. The title of Indians was their choice, it having been one of the names applied to the old National League club of Cleveland many years ago."
                Using a nickname in a mocking way in 1915, that may have been based on a nickname of a nickname that was used in a mocking way during the Gilded Age was sheer brilliance. Even today the Indians don't want to mention the odd timing of a last place team renaming itself with a suspiciously similar nickname of a Miracle World Series winner.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think if they ever dump Chief Wahoo (Which I fervently hope does not ever happen!) then they ought to go all the way and change the name as well. If they refuse to use any Indian imagery at all, their "Block C" merchandise is going to rot on the shelves. The only letter that sells is the Flying "A" gasoline signs of petroliana fame (as seen on the American Pickers TV show.)

                  I have only a few Indian items currently but everything I selected had the Chief on it. Although some "Block C" stuff was available, I chose none of it. Now that's just me, but I think they would sell a lot more stuff in the future if it actually carried a cool logo on it.

                  Everything I ever owned Indians related in the past, even going back to when I was a kid had the Chief on it as well.

                  I just think money talks and if they can't (won't) use Chief Wahoo, they are going to eventually change the name to something (Cleveland Cannons!!!) that allows them to design and use a logo on their T-shirts and other souvenirs and memorabilia.

                  Having said that, I sure hope they don't cave in to the pressure. The Commissioner is worse than Selig ever was with his ideas about automatic walks and starting extra inning games with men on base. I'd like to see him canned for those reasons alone, Chief Wahoo is just icing on the cake. The game is fine to me except for the DH (either use it across the whole of MLB or preferably, get rid of it.) and the way batters step in and out of the box. Once in, make them stay in.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Calif_Eagle View Post
                    I think if they ever dump Chief Wahoo (Which I fervently hope does not ever happen!) then they ought to go all the way and change the name as well. If they refuse to use any Indian imagery at all, their "Block C" merchandise is going to rot on the shelves. The only letter that sells is the Flying "A" gasoline signs of petroliana fame (as seen on the American Pickers TV show.)

                    I have only a few Indian items currently but everything I selected had the Chief on it. Although some "Block C" stuff was available, I chose none of it. Now that's just me, but I think they would sell a lot more stuff in the future if it actually carried a cool logo on it.

                    Everything I ever owned Indians related in the past, even going back to when I was a kid had the Chief on it as well.

                    I just think money talks and if they can't (won't) use Chief Wahoo, they are going to eventually change the name to something (Cleveland Cannons!!!) that allows them to design and use a logo on their T-shirts and other souvenirs and memorabilia.

                    Having said that, I sure hope they don't cave in to the pressure. The Commissioner is worse than Selig ever was with his ideas about automatic walks and starting extra inning games with men on base. I'd like to see him canned for those reasons alone, Chief Wahoo is just icing on the cake. The game is fine to me except for the DH (either use it across the whole of MLB or preferably, get rid of it.) and the way batters step in and out of the box. Once in, make them stay in.
                    I think Chief Wahoo is just about finished. In the past my opinion about him was pretty neutral, except that I always thought that it was kind of an unattractive logo. I started changing my mind about him a few years ago. I think partly because of how hysterical the Wahoo supporters sound. I think if the Wahoo logo would be done away with quickly if was introduced today. It had its day and I think that day is almost over. I've never had much in the way of Indians memorabilia but I don't remember much of it having Wahoo on it, especially when I was a kid.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Calif_Eagle View Post
                      The only letter that sells is the Flying "A" gasoline signs of petroliana fame (as seen on the American Pickers TV show.)
                      That's one of my favorite logos, Flying A. That and Esso.

                      Originally posted by EdTarbusz View Post
                      I think Chief Wahoo is just about finished.
                      Is it any idea to "reboot" him into a less stereotypical version?
                      X
                      Archie Bunker: All I can tell you, Edith, is I'm surprised at you! Dragging me off to a moving picture like that! It was absolutely disgusting!
                      Edith Bunker: Well, I'm sorry, Archie, how was I to know? I thought it was a religious picture, "Cardinal Knowledge!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gary Dunaier View Post
                        That's one of my favorite logos, Flying A. That and Esso.



                        Is it any idea to "reboot" him into a less stereotypical version?
                        Not that I've heard. The Wahoo worshipers say it's gotta be Wahoo or they're moving on from the Indians.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gary Dunaier View Post
                          That's one of my favorite logos, Flying A. That and Esso.



                          Is it any idea to "reboot" him into a less stereotypical version?
                          for the first sentence.

                          RE: the 2nd sentence, today's Chief Wahoo looks a LOT better than the original hook nosed and crooked teeth version. I'm sure you could find a picture online with little difficulty. I will try to find one and post it here.


                          https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...46-1950%29.png


                          From Wikipedia:
                          "In 1932, the front page of the Plain Dealer featured a cartoon by Fred George Reinert that used a caricatured Native American character with a definite resemblance to the later Chief Wahoo as a stand-in for the Cleveland Indians winning an important victory. The character came to be called "The Little Indian," and became a BIG character in cartoon coverage of the team's games, including a small front-page visual box where his head would peek out to announce the outcome of the latest game. Journalist George Condon would write in 1972, "When the baseball club decided to adopt an Indian caricature as its official symbol, it hired an artist to draw a little guy who came very close to Reinert's creation; a blood brother, unquestionably." "

                          "In 1947, Cleveland Indians owner Bill Veeck hired the J.F. Novak Company, designers of the patches worn by Cleveland's police and firefighters, to create a new logo for his team. Seventeen-year-old draftsman Walter Goldbach, an employee of the Novak Company, was asked to perform the job. Tasked with creating a mascot that "would convey a spirit of pure joy and unbridled enthusiasm", he created a smiling face with yellow skin and a prominent nose.[4] Goldbach has said that he had difficulty "figuring out how to make an Indian look like a cartoon",and that he was probably influenced by the cartoon style that was popular at the time."

                          Wiki says also that when they re-emphasized the Chief in the 1980's on hats jersies T-shirts souvenirs and memorabilia; sales skyrocketed.

                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          This was the original "official" Cleveland Indian version logo of Chief Wahoo in 1947. However, from 1932 on cartoons in the Cleveland Plain Dealer by stories on the team, featured the original proto-type drawings of a Chief Wahoo type figure that was even "worse" I guess you would say, in the way it presented his appearance. After 14 years as the unofficial symbol of the team, the Plain Dealer cartoons became the basis for this rendition. (The Plain Dealer sports department always had an editorial cartoonist that drew pictures and cartoons in the sports section for accompaniment with stories on the Indians, Browns and Barons hockey team for decades.)

                          I'll always be an Indian (or whatever they change it to, if they ever go that far) fan, whatever they do, but I hope nothing changes. I don't think there is anything offensive about "Indians" or Chief Wahoo. Just my personal opinion.


                          EDIT: Here is a link to a story that covers the history of the Chief, including some drawings of "The Little Indian" (predecessor of Chief Wahoo) that appeared as accompaniment to game stories in the Cleveland Plain Dealer from 1932 into the 1960's, with other editorial cartoons continuing there after with Tribe stories into at least the 1970's that I know of, maybe longer.

                          http://beltmag.com/secret-history-chief-wahoo/
                          Last edited by Calif_Eagle; 04-17-2017, 11:56 AM. Reason: To add link to original official Wahoo image. 15 years of PD cartoons predate this however.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gary Dunaier View Post
                            That's one of my favorite logos, Flying A. That and Esso.



                            Is it any idea to "reboot" him into a less stereotypical version?
                            There's the idea that Terry Pluto has brought up...reboot him in a redesigned by Indian artists form. Right now he exists in historical context in the ballpark, but not in signage, banners etc. Of course he's still very available in the Team Shop, even moreso in (somewhat surprisingly) Arizona during Spring Training. There's a long line of old '48 Wahoo bobbleheads and t shirts too. I'm positive that this year may very well be the last year, certainly before the All-Star game, that he's on team uniforms.
                            Anyway, Terry's interview and the accompanying article is certainly interesting and informative. But, since it deals with compromise it'll likely be poo-pooed by everyone. I love the idea. It is here....http://wksu.org/post/terry-pluto-its...-good#stream/0
                            and a version from this year....
                            http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index...ve_terrys.html
                            Last edited by Eyeshade; 04-23-2017, 07:57 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I once saw a picture of Hal Trosky or Earl Averill at bat with an Indian Chief (Not Chief Wahoo) logo on his shoulder patch. This logo was a noble looking Chief with a full head dress on. He wasn't smiling, (which seems to be what @#$%&* everyone off so very much). I don't recall where I saw the picture or I would attempt to post a link here. But seeing how that particular Chief has a historic linkage to the ball club, I would like to at least see "him" again to see if "he" might be an acceptable non-happy substitute.

                              I'll NEVER see how portraying Chief Wahoo smiling (<- The original OFFICIAL artist's explanation of what he was tasked to do is shown below**) is offensive. Indians are not stereotyped maliciously as grinning "like idiots" despite what goes around them. That's a different race of people entirely that once received that shameful treatment, and if they were the basis of the name of the team, I could far more readily understand why there would be massive ill feeling against that type of logo.

                              **From Wiki: In 1947, Cleveland Indians owner Bill Veeck hired the J.F. Novak Company, designers of the patches worn by Cleveland's police and firefighters, to create a new logo for his team. Seventeen-year-old draftsman Walter Goldbach, an employee of the Novak Company, was asked to perform the job. Tasked with creating a mascot that "would convey a spirit of pure joy and unbridled enthusiasm", he created a smiling face with yellow skin and a prominent nose. Goldbach has said that he had difficulty "figuring out how to make an Indian look like a cartoon", and that he was probably influenced by the cartoon style that was popular at the time.

                              So that's why Chief Wahoo is smiling or grinning if you prefer. That's not exactly a malicious reason or thought behind making him look that way. I would prefer to pass on hosting the All-Star game myself, rather than be blackmailed into making a logo change, but I am sure Tribe management is not of a like mind and will probably cave to Manfred's PC will. Never thought I'd ever want Bud Selig back, the world is a funny place.

                              Re: the Terry Pluto idea of a re-design by Indian artists, posted by Eyeshade in post # 14, I'd be willing to look at whatever got created with an open mind. From everything I read recently and for years back, it isn't American Indians that are upset about the name Indians and Chief Wahoo. It's SJW whites for the most part and I flatly don't think their opinion ought to count for squat. They have no skin in the game so to speak. You could probably find some kind of fault with every team's logo/nickname scheme if you used a sharp enough microscope and were nit-picky enough.
                              Last edited by Calif_Eagle; 04-23-2017, 12:46 PM.

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