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  • 56 chmps
    replied
    Originally posted by Mattingly
    Actually, any post here is for anyone else. SoxSon has spent a good amount of time here, and I've even invited him into one or two threads here. Possibly this one also.

    Yankee fans have posted into the Red Sox forum, so his entry here shouldn't be considered an issue. If so, please PM me.

    Thanks.
    I toatally realized that, thats why i put and other fan's who realize this.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mattingly
    replied
    Originally posted by 56 chmps
    Actually if you READ the initial post you would see that wasn't the point. This was for YANKEE fans and other fans who realize how the YANKEES always get rooted against not what ever your talking about. Next time actually read what the thread is about.
    Actually, any post here is for anyone else. SoxSon has spent a good amount of time here, and I've even invited him into one or two threads here. Possibly this one also.

    Yankee fans have posted into the Red Sox forum, so his entry here shouldn't be considered an issue. If so, please PM me.

    Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • sandlot
    replied
    People engage in bashing for a lot of reasons, some of them conscious, some not. In the case of the Yankees, there are the obvious factors of resentment, jealousy and, to a degree, social class identification. You can see the same thing at work with Manchester United (which, not entirely coincidentally, has business ties with NY), or Real Madrid, or -- during their incredible heyday -- the Boston Celtics. Twenty-six WS rings while other teams have one or none is bound to create some ill will, especially when the charge has always been that NY "buys" its championships. The rich vs. poor thing. Is there similar resentment in some quarters against Atlanta's perennial domination of its division? I don't know the answer to that, but I'd be surprised if there were not some hard feelings. But there's a distinction between, on the one hand, a normal level of intense, even passionate rivalry, and, on the other hand, conduct that is unbecoming, vulgar, vitriolic, obscene, aggressive, hostile and even threatening. The latter does not arise from the rivalry; it is something that the individual brings to it from his or her own life. I happen to believe that the conduct inside stadiums, especially YS and Fenway, just reflects what's happening outside the ballyard. For some folks, the Yankees just bring it out.

    Leave a comment:


  • SoxSon
    replied
    Originally posted by 56 chmps
    Actually if you READ the initial post you would see that wasn't the point. This was for YANKEE fans and other fans who realize how the YANKEES always get rooted against not what ever your talking about. Next time actually read what the thread is about.
    Your unwarranted hostility aside, I've reread the original post in this thread and come to the same conclusion. This thread is about team-bashing. (I also read the entire thread before posting.)

    Here it is, simply put: The fact that so many people root against the Yankees is "team-bashing." Those people don't care about the players on the team; they just want the Yankees to do poorly. That's what you've just said, right? Sandlot and I were both talking about how society plays a role in the tendency for some people to team-bash. It's all part of the same discussion.

    I hope that cleared it up for you.

    Leave a comment:


  • 56 chmps
    replied
    Originally posted by SoxSon
    Wasn't the idea of "team-bashing" the whole point of this thread?

    Actually if you READ the initial post you would see that wasn't the point. This was for YANKEE fans and other fans who realize how the YANKEES always get rooted against not what ever your talking about. Next time actually read what the thread is about.

    Leave a comment:


  • sandlot
    replied
    Thanks, SoxSon. My point exactly. The "shift" you write of strikes me as the natural result of simply getting older, maturing, and understanding what it really means to "get a life." I think a lot of the unpleasantry at games -- especially games played between intense rivals -- stems from the same kind of folks who make it equally unpleasant to go to a LL game or a Pop Warner contest. I now live in Asia and have for a long time, and while rudeness isn't unknown (especially in subways, and on buses) it's rarely personal. The use of public obscenities is generally frowned upon (though private language can be colorful indeed), and there is a certain level of politeness expected in civil discourse. But when I go back home and hear the tone of voice in which people speak to one another, even when they actually think they're being nice, I'm just appalled. That said, I've also heard some of the language used by rabid supporters of rival British football (soccer) teams, and it's way over the top. I hope we don't go down that road.

    Leave a comment:


  • SoxSon
    replied
    Originally posted by 55 chmps
    ummm, i don't no what u just sed, but, can we getback to topic? Personally though, yeah there are some people who are front runners and everything, but whatever.
    Actually, I think sandlot's made an excellent observation about society's role in baseball's degeneration. Wasn't the idea of "team-bashing" the whole point of this thread?

    Leave a comment:


  • 55 chmps
    replied
    Originally posted by sandlot
    There's been a shift in the nature of the population from which fans everywhere are drawn. Decency, manners and mutual respect are at all-time lows. Let's just look at what Howard Stern's being paid, and what he's being paid for -- lots of other examples, sure, the shock-jock's just an easy one. When there's almost no notion left of embarrassing oneself, how can we possibly expect people to concern themselves with embarrassing others? Asserting a team rivalry as sufficient reason for incivility and even anti-social conduct is just a pathetic attempt at justifying shamelessness and excusing hostility. Blind ignorance can be addressed through patience, reason and knowledge; degeneracy and dementia require something deeper. Paying money for a ticket doesn't buy someone the right to scream gross obscenities in a crowded bleacher, but there are plenty of people who mistakenly believe that it does.
    ummm, i don't no what u just sed, but, can we getback to topic? Personally though, yeah there are some people who are front runners and everything, but whatever.

    Leave a comment:


  • sandlot
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    Do you think your shift has anything to do with a change in the nature of the average fan in both sides? I find that the average fan on both sides has a certain blind ignorance and beligerrence to the rivalry and can't see baseball but in anything but the blurry Yankees/Red Sox lines, and even, their view is skewed by a blanket disdain for the other side.
    There's been a shift in the nature of the population from which fans everywhere are drawn. Decency, manners and mutual respect are at all-time lows. Let's just look at what Howard Stern's being paid, and what he's being paid for -- lots of other examples, sure, the shock-jock's just an easy one. When there's almost no notion left of embarrassing oneself, how can we possibly expect people to concern themselves with embarrassing others? Asserting a team rivalry as sufficient reason for incivility and even anti-social conduct is just a pathetic attempt at justifying shamelessness and excusing hostility. Blind ignorance can be addressed through patience, reason and knowledge; degeneracy and dementia require something deeper. Paying money for a ticket doesn't buy someone the right to scream gross obscenities in a crowded bleacher, but there are plenty of people who mistakenly believe that it does.

    Leave a comment:


  • SoxSon
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX
    Do you think your shift has anything to do with a change in the nature of the average fan in both sides? I find that the average fan on both sides has a certain blind ignorance and beligerrence to the rivalry and can't see baseball but in anything but the blurry Yankees/Red Sox lines, and even, their view is skewed by a blanket disdain for the other side.
    For me, the largest factor has to do with the place I have come to in my own life. But you make an interesting point, XX. I do have a tendency to grow even calmer when I'm interacting with lunatics, and there seem to be plenty of those around sports as a whole.

    What's always interesting is to take note of responses to "peace and love" posts like the one I wrote. I've noticed that more often than not, no one says anything. I don't know if this has to do with the ferocity of team allegiances or the apathy of the status quo. Either way, I generally take it as a general movement against the truce I envision. That's sort of remarkable in of itself.

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by SoxSon
    Figured I'd chime in on this one.

    I can't say that I've ever been a nasty fan. I've never booed anyone while at the park (though I support a fan's right to do so) and on the whole I've always looked at the game of baseball well before team rivalries, despite the historic, media-driven tensions between Boston and NY. I've rooted for the Red Sox my entire life, and I've rooted against Boston's opposing teams my entire life, but there also have always been individual players on each team whom I've liked (including NY). I like dedicated ballplayers with heart, and I don't really care which city they serve.

    The reason I say all this is because I may be an exception to the common rule, I don't know. But in response to "Have you ever noticed," it seems my impressions of the Yankees and our "great" rivalry have shifted over the last few years. I'm sure that some will claim sacrilege when I say this, but the rivalry is seeming like less and less of a big deal. Maybe the last few years have gotten something out of my system. I'm not sure. I still want Boston to beat NY, naturally, but I think a combination of age and an intensifying love for the game of baseball has created for me a sport in which I just don't see any team in absolutes. We do all have far more in common as fans than we have different, and I tend to think that Boston and NY, in particular, are both great cities with phenomenal fanbases. I'm not sure there's anything more to say than that.

    SoxSon
    Do you think your shift has anything to do with a change in the nature of the average fan in both sides? I find that the average fan on both sides has a certain blind ignorance and beligerrence to the rivalry and can't see baseball but in anything but the blurry Yankees/Red Sox lines, and even, their view is skewed by a blanket disdain for the other side.

    Leave a comment:


  • SoxSon
    replied
    Figured I'd chime in on this one.

    I can't say that I've ever been a nasty fan. I've never booed anyone while at the park (though I support a fan's right to do so) and on the whole I've always looked at the game of baseball well before team rivalries, despite the historic, media-driven tensions between Boston and NY. I've rooted for the Red Sox my entire life, and I've rooted against Boston's opposing teams my entire life, but there also have always been individual players on each team whom I've liked (including NY). I like dedicated ballplayers with heart, and I don't really care which city they serve.

    The reason I say all this is because I may be an exception to the common rule, I don't know. But in response to "Have you ever noticed," it seems my impressions of the Yankees and our "great" rivalry have shifted over the last few years. I'm sure that some will claim sacrilege when I say this, but the rivalry is seeming like less and less of a big deal. Maybe the last few years have gotten something out of my system. I'm not sure. I still want Boston to beat NY, naturally, but I think a combination of age and an intensifying love for the game of baseball has created for me a sport in which I just don't see any team in absolutes. We do all have far more in common as fans than we have different, and I tend to think that Boston and NY, in particular, are both great cities with phenomenal fanbases. I'm not sure there's anything more to say than that.

    SoxSon

    Leave a comment:


  • Mattingly
    replied
    Basically, I give every fan a chance to show themselves. I've met excellent Yankee and Red Sox fans here and on other boards. Some will talk the smack all night on both sides of the plate/fence or whatever, and some will truly have a love for baseball followed by a love for the team.

    I've known one thing in common with the ones I like that they love the game of baseball in its entirety than they love their team. I've followed Red Sox fans online about 5 or so years so, as before then, I hadn't chatted with them, other than the occasional meeting at Yankee Stadium.

    If someone is truly enamored with the game itself, the various records, its history, its rules, its entirety, and are truly devoted to the sanctity of the game, then a wealth of knowledge about their team's history can only be a bonus. If, however, all they care about is their team, its standings at the end of every year and whether or not they trounce the other team involved in the heated AL East rivalry, I've usually kept my distance from those people, regardless of whether they're Yankee or Red Sox fans.

    If people can get together like human beings, act like they're quality human beings when in mixed company, then so much the better.

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Evangelion
    That's a generalization you have created with your experience with Red Sox fans. I'm not trying to be rude or mean. This is the way I thinking I have got rid of myself. While I'm quite aware there's obnoxious Red Sox fans, there also obnoxious Yankee fans. It really doesn't matter which side is more obnoxious, they're both still obnoxious fans for each team around.
    Right on.

    However, I think in both cases (again, I lived in Boston for nearly 5 years, so I have a pretty good impression of the fans up there as well as fans in New York, where I've lived the rest of my life), the bad probably outweighs the good. Or at least gets more attention than the good.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evangelion
    replied
    The generalization of Yankee and Red Sox fans will be around all the time. Some Red Sox fans will think all Yankee fans are ignorant and a-hole, of course that's just a mere generalization on the part of a few fans, doesn't speak for that entire fan base. Same can be said for Yankee fans that think all Red Sox fans are just a bunch of angsty sore losers. Once again, that point of view is not shared by every fan of that fan base. Generalization will be around forever.

    Of course, if you know this, then you can seperate the good opinions from the bad and ignorant opinions. I know civil Yankee fans, but I also know some arrogant a-hole Yankee fans. I will not group entire fan base based on the few Yankee fans know, whether I would generalize Yankee fans being civil or a-holes. Like somebody said in this thread, get to know the person first before passing judgement.

    There will be some stupid Red Sox and Yankee fans and there will also be some very intelligent one that wouldn't mouth off blindly and ignorantly. Just a fact you accept and get over. Don't like obnoxious fans of a team, you just ignore them. Very hard to carry a conversation with a person that think every Yankee player sucks, when that's obviously not true.
    Also I think that boston fans are more obnoxious then yankee fans
    That's a generalization you have created with your experience with Red Sox fans. I'm not trying to be rude or mean. This is the way I thinking I have got rid of myself. While I'm quite aware there's obnoxious Red Sox fans, there also obnoxious Yankee fans. It really doesn't matter which side is more obnoxious, they're both still obnoxious fans for each team around.

    Leave a comment:

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