Coco Crisp

[Boston Boxer]

he is no andruw jones or even nearly as good a player as grady sizemore. Why not talk about real center fielders like griffey, edmonds not some guy who belongs in left field.

"he is no Andrew Jones"...really. No one is. As stated on our board (Red Sox) the reason everyone is talking about him is because it is really the only news lately. So if you want to talk about "real" center fielders, go ahead and start a thread...this should be interesting

[Mattingly]

he is no andruw jones or even nearly as good a player as grady sizemore. Why not talk about real center fielders like griffey, edmonds not some guy who belongs in left field.

Because he's young and seems to bat fairly well. He'll have lots more room to cover in 2006, and he'll have to call off both Manny and Trot, whereas before, he didn't have to call of anyone.

I'm personally not overly convinced that he can handle CF. Coco will have to prove this to me.

[ricky151]

what is with all this coco crip hype

he is no andruw jones or even nearly as good a player as grady sizemore. Why not talk about real center fielders like griffey, edmonds not some guy who belongs in left field.

[Mattingly]

Matt, after I said what I had to say about Swiss Fan, you told me to leave it alone, and if you'll read the entire second page of this thread, I engaged in civil baseball discussion throughout. That's when pesky (the name's quite appropriate) trolled over and dropped his 2 cents. I'm hardly deserving of a lecture.

I'm not too enthused about giving lectures or whatever people consider it, but you two may need to leave each other alone. If either of you have issues with the other, please PM XX and/or myself.

If there's an issue on the Boston forum, where XX and I have spent lots of time, we'll PM Annie and/or Flash. Same thing.

I've read most of the comments. So long as you two ask us to take care of things, we'll be OK.

pesky6, same goes for you. If you two have anything to clear the air over, please do so via PM.

Thx.

[pacewon]

Who are the other 4 players?

Hal Lanier, Doug Flynn, Johnnie LeMaster, and John Bateman.

[DoubleX]

From Lee Sinins today:

Alex Gonzalez is closing in on 3500 career Plate Appearances (he has 3488). When he reaches that figure, he'll rank 5th in the past half century for worst OBP vs. the league average among players with that many Plate Appearances.

His career OBP is .291. That's 25 points lower than Tony Womack's career OBP. Ouch.

Who are the other 4 players?

[pacewon]

From Lee Sinins today:

Alex Gonzalez is closing in on 3500 career Plate Appearances (he has 3488). When he reaches that figure, he'll rank 5th in the past half century for worst OBP vs. the league average among players with that many Plate Appearances.

His career OBP is .291. That's 25 points lower than Tony Womack's career OBP. Ouch.

[DoubleX]

Gonzalez is still a cheaper option than Renteria. Gonzalez has been a consistent fielder, so we can only hope he doesn't turn into the second coming of Edgar Renteria. Keep in mind, that Renteria was a number 2 hitter in Red Sox line-up while Alex Gonzalez will be the number 9 hitter in the Red Sox line-up. Renteria's numbers were pretty bad for a number 2 hitter while a number 9 hitter is never expect to be that great, which Gonzalez is not with the bat, but playing at Fenway, who know what will happen with Gonzalez's offense at this point.

Biggest question about Coco is how he'll handle being the lead-off hitter again. I think he's either little above or little below Damon at this point. Point being we replace Damon for the most part in the line-up, which was one of my major concern since Damon's departure really affected the entire line-up, mainly Ortiz and Rameriz. At this point, Coco has bad numbers out in CF from what I've seen, but we'll see how he'll do.

You make a good point about the positing in the lineup being a factor. But then again, who will be batting no. 2 for the Sox this year? Loretta probably, right? There really isn't much difference between Loretta and Renteria in terms of hitting for last year and for their careers, except Renteria has a little more power (which isn't saying much) and a lot more speed.

Actually, now that I've taken a look at Loretta's statistics, he kind of experienced a Brett Boonesque type jump in his numbers at age 31, after years of consistenly lower production, and then he fell back down to that lower production last year (just like Boone did two years ago when he regressed back to his previous level). Like with Boone, I'm not a little suspicious of Loretta (though I am very, very suspicious of Boone, because his mid-career jump was huge, after a much longer track record of lower consistency, and his decline 2 years ago was very dramatic).

[Evangelion]

Gonzalez is still a cheaper option than Renteria. Gonzalez has been a consistent fielder, so we can only hope he doesn't turn into the second coming of Edgar Renteria. Keep in mind, that Renteria was a number 2 hitter in Red Sox line-up while Alex Gonzalez will be the number 9 hitter in the Red Sox line-up. Renteria's numbers were pretty bad for a number 2 hitter while a number 9 hitter is never expect to be that great, which Gonzalez is not with the bat, but playing at Fenway, who know what will happen with Gonzalez's offense at this point.

Biggest question about Coco is how he'll handle being the lead-off hitter again. I think he's either little above or little below Damon at this point. Point being we replace Damon for the most part in the line-up, which was one of my major concern since Damon's departure really affected the entire line-up, mainly Ortiz and Rameriz. At this point, Coco has bad numbers out in CF from what I've seen, but we'll see how he'll do.

[DoubleX]

Probably, but my evaluation comes in large part from the team stability factors. One thing that bothers me about the way the front office has been dealing players lately is their willingness to undermine established team chemistry or to allow a developing chemistry to run its course.

I think we both believe that Damon and Renteria at their best are still better than Crisp and Gonzalez at their best. That said, there is tremendous potential for growth for Crisp, and Gonzalez, who finds himself in the position that Renteria was in last year at this time, won't have to produce more than average results (even for him) to show he can quickly adapt.

I think Crisp has a great upside, and depending on his defense in CF (I've heard lots of conflicting things about it), I might rather have him than Damon at this point (especially since he's much younger and actually posted a better OPS+ than Damon last year). But Gonzalez is really just a stopgag - think Pokey Reese (but not as good defensively as Reese). I think I'd still rather have Renteria, even if he played like last year again (but I don't think he will) than Gonzalez.

[FlashGordon]

I think my point was that despite Renteria's struggles last year, going into '06, I'd rather have Damon/Renteria than Crisp/Gonzalez. So I think we agree.

Probably, but my evaluation comes in large part from the team stability factors. One thing that bothers me about the way the front office has been dealing players lately is their willingness to undermine established team chemistry or to allow a developing chemistry to run its course.

I think we both believe that Damon and Renteria at their best are still better than Crisp and Gonzalez at their best. That said, there is tremendous potential for growth for Crisp, and Gonzalez, who finds himself in the position that Renteria was in last year at this time, won't have to produce more than average results (even for him) to show he can quickly adapt.

[pacewon]

That's about enough from the both of you.

Look, you're both very intelligent and highly passionate baseball fans. Simply because you two root for different teams doesn't necessarily mean that you need to get on each others' case. You both have the knowledge and ability to discuss baseball intelligently. My only suggestion is that you both do so.

I suggest you start doing so right now. If not, I'll ask both of you to exit this thread. I'd rather not do that, so I'd greatly appreciate it if neither of you forced my hand on this.

It's most interesting that a Red Sox Mod (Flash) and a Yankee Mod (XX) can discuss this very civilly here, but you two feel like getting on each others' cases. I've long said that in order for Yankee and Red Sox fans to understand each other, they should sit together and discuss subjects mutually important to them. Guess what? We're here. Please use that opportunity to your best advantage.

Thanks.

Matt, after I said what I had to say about Swiss Fan, you told me to leave it alone, and if you'll read the entire second page of this thread, I engaged in civil baseball discussion throughout. That's when pesky (the name's quite appropriate) trolled over and dropped his 2 cents. I'm hardly deserving of a lecture.

[Mattingly]

Dude, like you never go trolling on the Sox board?

I've never posted any "ha ha's" or anything to the degree of Swiss Fan's nonsense here; it's also comical that you're going to call me out for trolling on the Sox board while you are simultaneously trolling on the Yankees forum. How 'bout you go back to third place where you came from?

That's about enough from the both of you.

Look, you're both very intelligent and highly passionate baseball fans. Simply because you two root for different teams doesn't necessarily mean that you need to get on each others' case. You both have the knowledge and ability to discuss baseball intelligently. My only suggestion is that you both do so.

I suggest you start doing so right now. If not, I'll ask both of you to exit this thread. I'd rather not do that, so I'd greatly appreciate it if neither of you forced my hand on this.

It's most interesting that a Red Sox Mod (Flash) and a Yankee Mod (XX) can discuss this very civilly here, but you two feel like getting on each others' cases. I've long said that in order for Yankee and Red Sox fans to understand each other, they should sit together and discuss subjects mutually important to them. Guess what? We're here. Please use that opportunity to your best advantage.

Thanks.

[pacewon]

I suppose the question is, step up from what? From last year's production it'll be be awfully hard for Crisp to top Johnny Damon, but not impossible and he does come a lot cheaper. If nothing else, we Red Sox fans won't have anxiety flashes when Coco charges hard into the wall or toward the infield. Be sure to pad up Jeter and Damon.

Gonzalez/Renteria? Until the announcement is made this is academic, but I'd still have to say that it won't be that difficult for Gonzalez (or anyone else) to top Renteria's season. I would have liked to give him another year to turn it around, but based solely upon his one stint in a Boston uni, it's hard to argue that Gonzalez would be a step down.

It actually probably won't be that tough for Crisp to top Damon. He already beat him in OPS+ last year (119 to 113), and at age 32 I don't see Damon improving much upon that mark. I don't know if Crisp will improve, but at age 26, he certainly could. Damon is still a good defensive CF, however, whereas Crisp's RAA numbers as a CF aren't that promising. That could turn out to be a fluke and he could be a very good CF, but even if it isn't, he's still got a slight offensive advantage on Damon.

Renteria vs. Gonzalez is the opposite... Gonzalez's glove will be a big time upgrade; even if he only plays average defense (not tough to replace Renteria's 30 errors). That said, Gonzalez is just downright awful with the bat. Renteria's OPS+ with Boston last year was 91, and I'm sure all would agree that he was pretty lousy at the plate. Gonzalez's career OPS+ is 78, and his career OBP sits below .300 (.291).

[pacewon]

Dude, like you never go trolling on the Sox board?

I've never posted any "ha ha's" or anything to the degree of Swiss Fan's nonsense here; it's also comical that you're going to call me out for trolling on the Sox board while you are simultaneously trolling on the Yankees forum. How 'bout you go back to third place where you came from?