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Joba not being in the Pen is a total mistake

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  • Evangelion
    replied
    Originally posted by TonyStarks View Post
    I gotta say, that picking a bullpen is pretty much a crap shoot. You really never know what your going to get from year to year. There usually are 1 or 2 givens but the rest is pretty much pot luck. I like what the Yanks are doing this year. They're getting younger in the bullpen and not bringing in some rejects and throwing $3M at them. I'd much rather go this way!
    I agree with your view about a bullpen being a crap shoot. Not for the Yankees, for any MLB team. You'll find consistent relief pitchers remaining effective year after year, but if these effective pitchers had the ability to start and the team rotation was far from set, you would see them in the rotation, just look at the Royals. To my knowledge, their closer, Soria, will be trained to start this season. This leaves the team without a closer and likely they'll throw young players around and see which of them will be effective.

    If Hawkins or a young pitcher turn out to be effective, which is possible, then Joba's dominating the 8th inning would be nice, but what happens if he's replaceable since you have effective relievers able to do the exact same? Starters will always be more valuable than a relief pitcher. Heck, MLB teams even shown where they starters and relief pitchers by the contracts they issue.
    Originally posted by Yankeebiscuitfan View Post
    Again you have a good point here. But in fact it underlines what I am saying. Start Joba in the pen and if the other young guns will be effective, move Joba to the SR.

    See I am repeating myself again...
    Because, that could ruin him moving him in the middle of the season. Also, why pass the chance up to have a very good starting pitcher. Not like starting pitching a Yankee's source of power. If the rotation was all set, go for Joba in bullpen, but I doubt that rotation is set with two players in their later stages of their career in Pettitte and Mussina, one of which was dreadful before a slight burst in the playoff, that being Mussina. Two young pitchers who have pitched well, but far from proven at the moment in Kennedy and Hughes.

    You could bring up that inning limit. Boston sure handle Papelbon well during his first full season as the closer. That same situation could happen to Joba in the pen. While it can happen in the rotation, it could happen with use of Joba being used too often. I just see a injury coming if they follow "Let's keep him in the pen during the season, then move him into the rotation that same season."

    A Joba, Hughes, Kennedy rotating routine would work by keeping all their innings limited and also allow you to asset where each of them are. The Yankees, like people have brought, have many options for the bullpen this season. All these rookies are all unproven, just like Joba was when he came up. Might as well give them a chance. You be surprised that some of them could be effective.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
    Here's a point that I don't think we've really talked about yet - I think the bullpen will automatically be improved by virtue of Torre not managing it. Torre was terrible at managing the bullpen. Going with struggling veterans too frequently, not using promising young arms with enough regularity (and then writing them off when they struggled after not being used for several days), and then riding some of the more reliable arms into the ground (Karsay, Quantrill, Gordon, Proctor). If Farnsworth or Hawkins struggle, I don't think Girardi will trot them out there everyday like Torre would, and I think Girardi will give the young guys a fair shot, instead of reluctantly using them and then writing them of. If you show you can be effective, Girardi will use you, and that's a big departure from Torre, who made his mind up to rely on a few guys, even if they were struggling.

    I think some of these guys will surprise this year. Notable, I believe Ohlendorf, Veras, and Ramirez could play big roles. Then by the All Star break, hopefully Sanchez can join the team, and he could give them that fireballer they need in the setup role.
    Again you have a good point here. But in fact it underlines what I am saying. Start Joba in the pen and if the other young guns will be effective, move Joba to the SR.

    See I am repeating myself again...

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  • TonyStarks
    replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post

    Horne, Ohlendorf, and Veras all have good stuff and could be setup options (Horne will most likely start the year as a start at AAA). I've read that a lot of other teams are very impressed with Ramirez and his changeup and that he just needs regular work to become consistent in the Majors. Ramirez could end up as the secret weapon in the pen. He did struggle at times in the Majors last year, but he also struck out 31 in just 21 innings, so the potential is there.

    I've read that Bruney has reported in much better shape, so perhaps that's a sign that he's willing to work on things this year. He also has good stuff, just needs command. I've read Albaladejo has good stuff and should have a good chance to make the team. Britton has shown to be solid when given a chance. I think he could have really helped last year, but Torre never seem to warm up on him. Rasner and Karstens could be long-relief options and Karstens is supposedly throwing very well right now. I think Henn has good stuff from the left side and he pitched well early last year, but Torre probably went to him once too often. Heath Phillips, a lefty who the Yankees picked up this offseason looks like a decent prospect (I think he was on BA's 31st team list). Then there are other young arms like Marquez, White, Jackson, Whelan, Cox, and perhaps most importantly, Sanchez, that could impact the bullpen this year.

    In all, I feel fairly confident that the can cobble something decent together. What most of these guys are lacking is experience, but a lot of these guys have good enough stuff.

    Edwar Ramirez:
    You know I'm a big fan of Edwar Ramirez. I like the guy and his make up.
    I just think the the long periods of inactivity hurt him and when Torre trotted him out there, he usually left him in there too long.

    Russ Ohlendorf:
    I like what I saw from the kid. Although I hated the long socks with the Adidas shoes he wore. LOL I liked the kid's makeup and how he was aggressive when on the mound. He should make the team from Day 1.

    Jose Veras:
    I like some things about him, but I'm not completely sold on him. He seemed erratic at times, we already have Bruney.

    Brian Bruney:
    What happened to this guy? He was a horse! He was racking up K's and he was absolutely fearless. Somehow, I think he lost his confidence last season and I blame Torre for it. After Torre neutered him, the guy just seemed lost out there. He wasn't throwing as hard and the K's were coming with any consistency, then his BB's were UP!

    Darrell Rasner:
    I love the guy in the long relief role. The guy was probably the one of the best Starters early on, up until his injury. Joe Torre had some sort of vendetta against the guy and it was never explained why.

    Jeff Karstens:
    I'm so over you! I really liked the guy 2 years ago, but last season it seemed like everytime he was trotted out to the mound he was beaten...like he stole something! IMO, it's time to trade the kid....say to Pittsburgh or Washington where he could have some sort of a decent career.

    Carlos Albaladejo:
    Don't know much about the kid, but I looked over his numbers and there's definately potential there. I just hope he gets to prove himself. I hope he doesn't become this years Chris Britton, meaning he's sent to AAA and buried there even though he's having a good year and the MLB bullpen needs help.


    I gotta say, that picking a bullpen is pretty much a crap shoot. You really never know what your going to get from year to year. There usually are 1 or 2 givens but the rest is pretty much pot luck. I like what the Yanks are doing this year. They're getting younger in the bullpen and not bringing in some rejects and throwing $3M at them. I'd much rather go this way!

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Yankeebiscuitfan View Post
    I know that Double X has some good points here. But what choice do we have right now? If a guy like Ohlendorf (for example) proves that he is a good middle or short reliever, he can take over Joba's spot, so Joba can move to the SR. But right now that is not an option.

    And because the Yankees have been quite bad in building a good bullpen lately, I prefer Joba there.

    But I have said that before, so did Double X with his arguments. We keep repeating ourselves, so this conversation is going nowhere.
    Here's a point that I don't think we've really talked about yet - I think the bullpen will automatically be improved by virtue of Torre not managing it. Torre was terrible at managing the bullpen. Going with struggling veterans too frequently, not using promising young arms with enough regularity (and then writing them off when they struggled after not being used for several days), and then riding some of the more reliable arms into the ground (Karsay, Quantrill, Gordon, Proctor). If Farnsworth or Hawkins struggle, I don't think Girardi will trot them out there everyday like Torre would, and I think Girardi will give the young guys a fair shot, instead of reluctantly using them and then writing them of. If you show you can be effective, Girardi will use you, and that's a big departure from Torre, who made his mind up to rely on a few guys, even if they were struggling.

    I think some of these guys will surprise this year. Notable, I believe Ohlendorf, Veras, and Ramirez could play big roles. Then by the All Star break, hopefully Sanchez can join the team, and he could give them that fireballer they need in the setup role.

    Leave a comment:


  • monkey333
    replied
    Originally posted by Hank Parks View Post
    I'll say it again
    This will be close to the Rivera and Wettland times of 96
    They won it all
    OMG ur rite! Joba and Mo in the bullpen = automatic championship, who cares about the rest of the team.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I know that Double X has some good points here. But what choice do we have right now? If a guy like Ohlendorf (for example) proves that he is a good middle or short reliever, he can take over Joba's spot, so Joba can move to the SR. But right now that is not an option.

    And because the Yankees have been quite bad in building a good bullpen lately, I prefer Joba there.

    But I have said that before, so did Double X with his arguments. We keep repeating ourselves, so this conversation is going nowhere.

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  • VIBaseball
    replied
    I really couldn't agree more with all of DoubleX's arguments. Good starting pitching is the scarcest commodity in the game today. Decent setup men are much more readily obtainable. (I looked back to the Jeff Nelson deal and who was involved -- oh, what a heist that was for the Yankees!)

    "Shortening the game" is a good tactic, but I too believe that good innings out of a starter (even the devalued definition of a "quality start") will win more games for a club. Finally, thinking longer-term is the greater good.

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  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Yankeebiscuitfan View Post
    That's what I am trying to say. I also want Joba in the starting rotation in the long run. I know that you can not use him as a set up man every day. He needs his rest too. I don't want any other Torre like situations. But at the moment Joba is the best option we have for set up man. If it turns out that another pitcher is suitable for that job, lets move Joba to the SR. But only then.
    The problem with making Joba a full time setup man now though is that it will retard his growth as a starter. It's like you'd be getting a little slice of pie now at the expense of having a whole pie later. The Yankees will likely be better off in the long-run if they have Joba starting this year. It's sacrificing a little bit of the present for more success in the future.

    Anyway, I'm willing to reserve judgment until after Spring Training, because a lot can happen between now and then. Someone could get injured in the rotation, raising the need for Joba to start there. Someone unexpected, like Karstens or Rasner or Horne, could dazzle and make the team, making it easier to start with Joba in the pen. I'd say in the pen, only Rivera going down for any length of time could dramatically raise the need for Joba to start in the pen (otherwise, there are so many seemingly interchangeable good young arms in camp, that the Yankees should be able to fill out a decent bullpen).

    Originally posted by TonyStarks View Post
    There are so many variables for the bullpen this season that I'm sure the backend might be better this year than last. There's Hawkins who is a pretty good option. Farnsworth, who I hate, but remember folks he's in a contract year. Maybe, just maybe that helps him. Then you have guys like Alan Horne, Russ Ohlendorf, Jose Veras, Edwar Ramirez. We don't know what we have with the last 3 but Alan Horne could be a real stud.
    Horne, Ohlendorf, and Veras all have good stuff and could be setup options (Horne will most likely start the year as a start at AAA). I've read that a lot of other teams are very impressed with Ramirez and his changeup and that he just needs regular work to become consistent in the Majors. Ramirez could end up as the secret weapon in the pen. He did struggle at times in the Majors last year, but he also struck out 31 in just 21 innings, so the potential is there.

    I've read that Bruney has reported in much better shape, so perhaps that's a sign that he's willing to work on things this year. He also has good stuff, just needs command. I've read Albaladejo has good stuff and should have a good chance to make the team. Britton has shown to be solid when given a chance. I think he could have really helped last year, but Torre never seem to warm up on him. Rasner and Karstens could be long-relief options and Karstens is supposedly throwing very well right now. I think Henn has good stuff from the left side and he pitched well early last year, but Torre probably went to him once too often. Heath Phillips, a lefty who the Yankees picked up this offseason looks like a decent prospect (I think he was on BA's 31st team list). Then there are other young arms like Marquez, White, Jackson, Whelan, Cox, and perhaps most importantly, Sanchez, that could impact the bullpen this year.

    In all, I feel fairly confident that the can cobble something decent together. What most of these guys are lacking is experience, but a lot of these guys have good enough stuff.
    Last edited by DoubleX; 02-17-2008, 07:00 AM.

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  • TonyStarks
    replied
    Joba belongs in the Rotation.

    Starting him in the pen, to send him down, to bring him back up is a mistake. I just hope it doesn't come back to the bite the Yanks.


    There are so many variables for the bullpen this season that I'm sure the backend might be better this year than last. There's Hawkins who is a pretty good option. Farnsworth, who I hate, but remember folks he's in a contract year. Maybe, just maybe that helps him. Then you have guys like Alan Horne, Russ Ohlendorf, Jose Veras, Edwar Ramirez. We don't know what we have with the last 3 but Alan Horne could be a real stud.

    If you don't groom one of these guys now, what are you going to do next season? Ask for Joba to Setup again? Joba is MUCH MUCH more valuable throwing 5-7 innings...than he would be for 1 or 2. This is an easy choice!

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Hank Parks View Post
    When Farnsworth goes in there it's 50 -50 either a great inning or 5 runs are scored it's prayer time in close games
    Who do they have besides Rivera to make it a great pen?
    A team cannot win it all without a great Bull Pen
    With Joba pitching 7 and 8 and Rivera 9 The starters most of the time pitch 6 unless a real great game like from Wang or something
    A great Hughes Wang or Pettite game will rest Joba and I think this combo would work
    If the Yanks don't have that great 7 and 8 inning pitched well forget it
    Pitching Joba every 4 or 5 games is great but I think he will be more valuable the other way
    That's what I am trying to say. I also want Joba in the starting rotation in the long run. I know that you can not use him as a set up man every day. He needs his rest too. I don't want any other Torre like situations. But at the moment Joba is the best option we have for set up man. If it turns out that another pitcher is suitable for that job, lets move Joba to the SR. But only then.

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  • Hank Parks
    replied
    I'll say it again
    This will be close to the Rivera and Wettland times of 96
    They won it all

    Leave a comment:


  • Hank Parks
    replied
    When Farnsworth goes in there it's 50 -50 either a great inning or 5 runs are scored it's prayer time in close games
    Who do they have besides Rivera to make it a great pen?
    A team cannot win it all without a great Bull Pen
    With Joba pitching 7 and 8 and Rivera 9 The starters most of the time pitch 6 unless a real great game like from Wang or something
    A great Hughes Wang or Pettite game will rest Joba and I think this combo would work
    If the Yanks don't have that great 7 and 8 inning pitched well forget it
    Pitching Joba every 4 or 5 games is great but I think he will be more valuable the other way

    Leave a comment:


  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Yankeebiscuitfan View Post
    Let's say you use him as a starter. He can't always go nine innings. Why spoiling the lead with guys who aren't capable of stopping other teams to get passed you? We have lost too many games thanks to guys like Myers and Farnsworth. I don't want that anymore.
    He most often won't go 9 innings, but you're worried about replacing an inning or two, amounting to maybe 70-75 a year. I'm worried about replacing 6 or 7 innings for each of his starts and 200+ innings a year. Which would you rather have? A lesser pitcher pitching 200 a year or 70 a year? We'll lose more games with mediocrity replacing those lost 200 innings than with replacing those lost 70 innings.

    I agree that with the options this year, Joba in the pen makes some sense, but I think it will devalue his long-term potential to the team. The team is better off with 200 innings a year from him than 70, because then you'd have to find less qualified people to make up those 130 innings.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
    The Yankees have been particularly bad at building bullpens, so I wouldn't use the Yankees as a measuring stick. This past year alone, 18 different pitchers saved at least 30 games (as many as Rivera), proof that it's not hard to find a decent enough closer. We've been spoiled with how good Rivera has been, and it's unlikely we'll ever have anyone as good any time soon, but teams can and do get by with only decent closers. Look at Cleveland this year - they got by the Yankees with Joe Borowski closing. Borowski led the AL with 45 saves but with a 5.07 ERA. Or look at Detroit last year. They made the World Series with Todd Jones, who saved 37 games but with an ERA around 4.

    My basic point is that a closer is very overrated. Joba would probably be very good in that role, but why waste him there when the team can likely find someone serviceable enough while having the benefit of Joba in the rotation? I'd rather have Joba spend his time towards building to be a 200 inning front of the rotation starter, a place where there is a real premium, than have him be a 70 inning reliever, a place where his potential is not be maximized and where the team can find something serviceable.
    I actually meant that the Yankees were bad in building bullpens. And that is exactly the reason why I want him to be there as long as there is no one else to take his place.

    Let's say you use him as a starter. He can't always go nine innings. Why spoiling the lead with guys who aren't capable of stopping other teams to get passed you? We have lost too many games thanks to guys like Myers and Farnsworth. I don't want that anymore.

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  • DoubleX
    replied
    Originally posted by Yankeebiscuitfan View Post
    I have seen how easy it was to find a set up man and short relievers the last couple of years... Sure there are capable closers, but the teams that have them, won't let them go very easy. Like I said; if we can find someone from inside the organisation or as an FA who can replace Joba as a set up man and who can be our future closer, I am all for it. But I still think that his future lies in the last two innings of the game.
    The Yankees have been particularly bad at building bullpens, so I wouldn't use the Yankees as a measuring stick. This past year alone, 18 different pitchers saved at least 30 games (as many as Rivera), proof that it's not hard to find a decent enough closer. We've been spoiled with how good Rivera has been, and it's unlikely we'll ever have anyone as good any time soon, but teams can and do get by with only decent closers. Look at Cleveland this year - they got by the Yankees with Joe Borowski closing. Borowski led the AL with 45 saves but with a 5.07 ERA. Or look at Detroit last year. They made the World Series with Todd Jones, who saved 37 games but with an ERA around 4.

    My basic point is that a closer is very overrated. Joba would probably be very good in that role, but why waste him there when the team can likely find someone serviceable enough while having the benefit of Joba in the rotation? I'd rather have Joba spend his time towards building to be a 200 inning front of the rotation starter, a place where there is a real premium, than have him be a 70 inning reliever, a place where his potential is not be maximized and where the team can find something serviceable.

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