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Clay and Joba Should Be Allowed to Pitch More

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  • Clay and Joba Should Be Allowed to Pitch More

    Both Clay and Chamberlain are 22 years old. The number of innings each works in 2008 will be limited. Putting a cap on a young pitcher's workload is unnecessary.

    http://major-league-baseball.suite10..._can_work_more
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  • #2
    Originally posted by LouGehrig View Post
    Both Clay and Chamberlain are 22 years old. The number of innings each works in 2008 will be limited. Putting a cap on a young pitcher's workload is unnecessary.

    http://major-league-baseball.suite10..._can_work_more
    Is it? Not putting a cap on Mark Prior and Kerry Wood's workloads is what got them injured in the first place.
    46 wins to match last year's total

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    • #3
      Originally posted by LouGehrig View Post
      Both Clay and Chamberlain are 22 years old. The number of innings each works in 2008 will be limited. Putting a cap on a young pitcher's workload is unnecessary.[/url]
      Who wrote this?? Billy Martin, Dusty Baker, or Joe Girardi??
      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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      • #4
        Originally posted by KCGHOST View Post
        Who wrote this?? Billy Martin, Dusty Baker, or Joe Girardi??
        Possibly.

        The article basically says, "These guys did it, and most didn't have arm problems, so Buchholz and Chamberlain can do it without being hurt too."

        The fact is that, for whatever reason, most pitchers of this or the past generation just can't go as long as Seaver, Maddux, or even Nolan Ryan, used to.
        46 wins to match last year's total

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
          Possibly.

          The article basically says, "These guys did it, and most didn't have arm problems, so Buchholz and Chamberlain can do it without being hurt too."

          The fact is that, for whatever reason, most pitchers of this or the past generation just can't go as long as Seaver, Maddux, or even Nolan Ryan, used to.
          The key is "whatever reason." Young pitchers must be closely monitored, but some would be able to pitch as many innings as young pitchers used to be allowed to pitch.

          An interesting question is, "Do some of the modern pitchers throw so hard that their arm, shoulder, and elbow cannot take the great strain? For example, let's say that Joba throws a little harder than Seaver. Would that little more strain be just enough to create a sore arm? Is that what happened to Kerry Wood?

          In other words, is there a threshhold that Wood reached but that Seaver did not? Kinda like a car that goes 98 but not 100 mph, and at 100 mph, the engine block cracks.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by LouGehrig View Post
            Putting a cap on a young pitcher's workload is unnecessary.

            both Papelbon and Okajima hit walls in their rookie years, when their pitch count got too high for the season. In the Bigs, suddenly you're playing a much longer season, and throwing more pitches than you ever have in your life. You have to gradually adjust your body to that added strain.

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            • #7
              I think that when considering pitch counts for the pitcher (both by game and per season) is to also consider whether the pitcher is a power pitcher like Clemens or a slow pitcher like Maddux. I think that the guys with "heat" in the 85-89mph range will have an easier time doing those innings.

              If you take a power pitcher like Pedro, especially with his small frame, then you may have to watch his innings.

              I don't know which decade it ended, but some of the pitchers in years past had 4-man rotations, so they had no choice but to pitch many innings. Guys also threw many more innings per game, not just more games.

              If guys have been groomed since HS, college and then MiLB to pitch fewer innings (for example), I think that by the time you get to the bigs, you may need some time before you can just expect them to pitch 7 innings a game. Ideally, yes, but what have they done before re number of innings pitched?

              To me, so long as a guy can go an effective 6 innings, he's fine. If he's coming off the DL, I'd say that a 5-inning minimum would be OK. Anything less and you may wish to give him a few more days unless your other guys are doing very poorly.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by LouGehrig View Post
                The key is "whatever reason." Young pitchers must be closely monitored, but some would be able to pitch as many innings as young pitchers used to be allowed to pitch.

                An interesting question is, "Do some of the modern pitchers throw so hard that their arm, shoulder, and elbow cannot take the great strain? For example, let's say that Joba throws a little harder than Seaver. Would that little more strain be just enough to create a sore arm? Is that what happened to Kerry Wood?

                In other words, is there a threshhold that Wood reached but that Seaver did not? Kinda like a car that goes 98 but not 100 mph, and at 100 mph, the engine block cracks.
                Might be. I don't think Seaver was a hard thrower. Nolan Ryan is probably a bad example because he was a freak. No one else threw as hard as he could for 27 years.

                I would have to say that most pitchers can't go nine innings effectively and constantly because of conditioning; namely, they don't build up their endurance to where they're able to throw 100-150 pitches every time out. That is the only reason I can think of. A cynical person may add PEDs to the mix, and that could be a factor as well.

                Be that as it may, I still think that it is smart for the Red Sox and Yankees to watch the work of their pitching prospects closely.
                46 wins to match last year's total

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by LouGehrig View Post
                  Both Clay and Chamberlain are 22 years old. The number of innings each works in 2008 will be limited. Putting a cap on a young pitcher's workload is unnecessary.

                  http://major-league-baseball.suite10..._can_work_more
                  The article completely ignores actual, real evidence to the contrary.

                  Think of the thousands of pitchers over the past 100 years. Just by the sheer amount some must have worked out but many many more could have
                  2009 World Series Champions, The New York Yankees

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
                    I don't think Seaver was a hard thrower.
                    I guess you didn't have the pleasure of seeing the young Seaver, Sam. I was just a kid, but I remember.

                    You don't strike out 19 in a game, including the last 10 in a row, if you can't throw hard. That was April 22, 1970. He struck out 289 men in 286 innngs the next year.

                    Seaver did become a fine finesse pitcher later in his career, though.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nutriaitch View Post
                      both Papelbon and Okajima hit walls in their rookie years, when their pitch count got too high for the season. In the Bigs, suddenly you're playing a much longer season, and throwing more pitches than you ever have in your life. You have to gradually adjust your body to that added strain.
                      You're using the 33 year old Hideki Okajima as an example?

                      People are cautious with their young pitchers, likely due to what happen to young pitchers like Wood, Harden and Prior as examples. If the teams wish to be cautious with young pitchers, their investments, then they're welcome to do that.

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                      • #12
                        Interesting question, but it's too late since the season is starting in a matter of days. Since Cashman has gambled on young pitchers and did not make any deals for vet starters, they have bigger problems than Clay or Joba....If this teams SP looks as bad by the trading deadline as it has so far this spring, I expect to see a couple of the young pitchers (I don't know who) to be gone.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SamtheBravesFan View Post
                          Is it? Not putting a cap on Mark Prior and Kerry Wood's workloads is what got them injured in the first place.
                          Actually horrible mechanics got Prior and Wood injured. The fact that they were overworked sped up their breakdown.

                          If being overworked was the sole reason for pitchers to breakdown, then Walter Johnson wouldn't have played for 20 years. He threw over 326 innings and had over 29 complete games for 8 years (age 22-30). He also threw very hard, especially for the time.

                          Pitchers are babied because of how much teams invest in them. To fix this proble, you can't have Joba or Buchholz throw 120+ pitches a ML game. You have to fix the problem in Little League, high school, and college. Work from the bottom up and eventually pitchers will be more resilient and able to pitch more than 6 innings in a game.
                          Last edited by NYMets523; 03-21-2008, 09:36 AM.
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