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I recently had a long discussion with a Red Sox fan about retired numbers. I'm a Yankees fan but I don't hate the Red Sox (except Papelbon and Schilling), my father is a Red Sox fan (I got my brains and team loyalty from my mother). I told my friend I think the Red Sox do a horrible job with honoring their past greats. Where's Jim Rice's number? Dwight Evans? Tris Speaker, Harry Hooper, Joe Wood? I think having your number retired is the highest honor a team can give a player next to having a monument or statue. I started looking up Yankee greats from over the years and made a list of who I thought was deserving of a retired number. I thought it would be fun to write all this stuff down and post it here.
I think a debate over who's jersey number should be retired is all about what your own personal standards are. If your standards are only the greatest of the great and top tier Hall of Famers then your list is 4, 3, 5, 7, 8 (once), and maybe 16. If your standard is Hall of Famers with 10+ years on the team there are 7 guys already retired that wouldn't make your list although I think Billy Martin might make the Hall someday. If you think Maris, Reggie and Guidry are well within the standards for having your number retired then there might be a dozen more guys that should be included with them.
Compared to the many Yankee's fans Ive talked to about this I think my standards are in the middle, not too conservative and not too liberal. I'm basically looking for 9 or 10 years with the Yankees and a Hall of Fame caliber career. Not all those years need to be with the Yankees, but most of their best years should be with the team. I made a few exceptions for special circumstances though. I wish I had that book that lists all the numbers the retired players wore, maybe someone can help with those. I have 3 levels: yes, no, and maybe. That's pretty self explanatory. I grouped them loosely by era's.
Here are my thoughts on the already retired Yankee numbers:
4 - Gehrig - Of course.
3 - Ruth - Yes. Greatest player ever and turned the Yankees from the Devil Rays into well, the Yankees.
5 - DiMaggio - Yup.
7 - Mantle - Yup.
37 - Stengel - Yes. 7 rings.
8 - Yogi - Yes. Will Yogi get a monument like Mantle? I think he might. He's a top tier Hall of Famer. Maybe those should be reserved for the best of the best guys like Ruth and Gehrig but Yogi isn't too far back. He's maybe the greatest catcher ever, him or Bench IMO. And he's absolutely loved by both the players and the fans. 10 rings don't hurt either.
8 - Dickey - Yes.
16 - Ford - Yes.
15 - Munson - Yes. The tragedy of his death, being an excellent player and being the captain makes this a deserving honor. IMO he's behind Bench and Fisk, and possibly Ted Simmons for 70's catchers.
9 - Maris - Maybe. This is where the borderline started. I'm 75/25 against this one. He didn't play very long with the Yanks (7 years). I think the reasons he got this honor is because George was mad he didn't get elected to the Hall of Fame and he wanted to kiss up to the fans and ex-players. He was never close to being a Hall of Famer. 3 great years and 2 very good ones is not a Hall of Famer. The people that thought he was were mostly ignorant fans, and George panders to ignorant fans and is kind of ignorant himself. The 2 MVP's with the Yankees are what would make me consider him.
32 - Elston Howard - Maybe. Borderline, but I'm ok with it. 13 years with the team. If not for Berra or the color of his skin he might have been starting as early as 1952 or 53, also being the first black player on the team is a bonus for him.
10 - Rizzuto - Yes. I think it's deserving. Hall of Famer that played his whole career in New York. 13 years with the team plus 2 more years missed to WW2. Also gets extra credit for being a long time announcer.
1 - Martin - Yes. I agree with this one too. 7 years as a player and 7 more as a manager, although a few of those weren't full seasons. The guy was so proud of being a Yankee he had "I may not have been the greatest Yankee to put on the uniform but I was the proudest" engraved on his tombstone. That has to count for something. And he was a great manager, not good, great. And I loved him growing up and it's my list.
44 - Reggie - No. Bad choice. Reggie's Hall Of Fame plaque should have him in an A's hat. He's a smart guy and he knew that having that NY on his Hall of Fame plaque would mean more dollars in his pocket. 5 years with the Yankees is just not long enough. I think his selection is the worst by far. His best years were with Oakland and 5 years with the Yankees is waaaay too short.
23 - Mattingly - Yes. I'm fine with this one. He carried the Yankees torch for a long time. I wish he could have one won, but they might not have been there without Tino in 1996. Played from 1982 to 1995 with no pennants, then coached from 2004-2007 with no pennants. They won pennants in the years before and after he played and won their last pennant before he came back as the hitting coach. I've heard a lot of people say Arod needs to win a series before he should be honored but then have no problems with Mattingly. Kinda strange.
49 - Guidry - No. Not as bad as Reggie but I don't agree with this one. 14 years with the club and he was there for the 4 pennants from 76-81. I'd put him behind Nettles in a player to player comparison. He was great during those 2 championship years, but didn't have enough great years beyond those.
42 - Jackie Robinson - No. It's honorary. I'm a huge Jackie Robinson fan. I've read 7 or 8 books about him and have his picture on my wall. I've even met his wife several times (she lives 10 minutes from me). I just don't really like having his number retired throughout baseball. I'm not trying to take anything away from him but I just think the whole thing is a little forced and manufactured.
Here's my list of guys I've heard mentioned over the years:
Early years:
Jack Chesbro - Nope. And didn't wear a number. No plaque either.
20's and 30's era:
Joe McCarthy - Yes. 7 rings. If Stengel why not McCarthy? I'm not sure he wore a number though.
Tony Lazzeri - Yes. 12 years in New York. I'm kind of on the fence but I'd be in favor of this one.
Earle Combs - No. 12 years with the team. 9 full seasons. I think his selection to the Hall of Fame is borderline. He's behind Lazzeri and the 4 pitchers below.
Bob Meusel - No. 10 years in New York.
Joe Dugan - No. 7 years in New York.
Quick Note: If any of the next 4 pitchers pitched in the last 40 years their numbers would have been retired.
Red Ruffing - Yes. After Ford he's probably the best non active pitcher the Yankees have ever had. 231 wins plus 2 years missed during WW2 and I'm not sure why, he was way over the draft age. Does anyone know why Ruffing missed 43 and 44? Was it a war job or something? He has a plaque but his number should also be retired.
Herb Pennock - Maybe. 11 years in New York. Hall of Famer. 240 wins during the Ruth era. He's behind Ruffing, but he's still a decent choice.
Waite Hoyt - Maybe. 10 years in New York. Hall of Famer. 237 wins in Ruth's era. I'd put him slightly above Pennock and behind Ruffing.
Lefty Gomez - Maybe. 13 years in New York. He's a maybe on my list and about even with Hoyt. Hall of Famer, 189 wins, 5 rings, and 7 time all-star and would have made the team in '31 and '32. He's about equal with Pettite in career numbers.
Carl Mays - No. 5 years with the Yanks. I think the argument for him being in the Hall of Fame is very interesting though.
Red Rolfe - Nah.
Frank Crosetti - Yes. I am very much in favor of this one. He played for 17 years with the Yankees (the last two he appeared in very few games), and he won 7 rings as a player. He was a good if not great player. On top of that he spent 20 years as a Yankee coach. He was with the team for 23 pennants and 17 world series wins. He received so many rings they started giving him engraved shotguns instead. He was with the club from 1932 until 1968 and holds the team record for service time. He was there from Ruth and Gehrig and Dimaggio through to Mantle. He at least deserves a plaque like the ones erected for Mel Allen and Bob Sheppard.
40's and 50's:
Charlie Keller - Maybe. I've seen some pretty convincing arguments for him to be enshrined in Cooperstown. 11 years with the team and 1 1/2 missed years due to WW2. He's a better choice than several guys who's numbers have been retired already.
Joe Gordon - No. 7 years in New York. Missed 2+ years to WW2. He's behind Keller.
Tommy Henrich - Nope. 11 years with the Yankees.
Allie Reynolds - No. 8 years in New York.
Eddie Lopat - No. 8 years in New York.
Hank Bauer - No. 12 very good years with the team, but not good enough for me.
Moose Skowron - No. 9 years in pinstripes. A better player than Bauer and his numbers would be better if he didn't play for Stengel. He still falls short.
60's, 70's, and 80's:
Catfish Hunter - Nah. 5 years with the team. Same boat as Reggie.
Graig Nettles - Maybe. 11 years with New York. He was there for all 4 pennants. I think he's at least as deserving as Guidry, probably more. He's more deserving than Reggie. This is one of those if them then this guy arguments for me.
Willie Randolph - No. He's in the same category as Nettles and Guidry, but not as good a player as Nettles. 13 years in New York. All 4 pennants.
Goose Gossage - No. Not long enough with the team, 6 years. Same group as Nettles, Guidry, and Randolph. It's kind of strange that those teams from 1976-1981 had so many guys that IMO are close to Yankee immortality but not quite good enough as players for me.
Bobby Murcer - No. 13 years for the Bombers. Another guy from those 70's teams but he missed the championship years. I put him about even with Guidry, I wouldn't vote for them but if they got the honor I wouldn't be mad. Murcer, like Mattingly, was also a torch bearer through many lean years for the Yankees. I really like him as an announcer and I hope he gets well.
Dave Winfield - Yes. I think he's the best retired player who's number isn't retired yet. 9 years with the team and he should get credit for more years. What George III did to him was reprehensible and without that garbage he might have stayed for another few years.
90's to today:
2 - Jeter - Yup. He'll have a monument too.
6 - Torre - Yeah. 4 rings.
51 - Bernie Williams - Yes. 16 years service. Played his whole career here and was a hell of a player. He's a better choice than Maris, Reggie, Guidry, Howard and almost all the other retired guys who's numbers haven't been retired. I think if he wasn't so stubborn and came back in 2007 and then hooked up with another team for a couple years his career numbers would have improved enough to make a more solid case for his election to the Hall of Fame. I don't know if he'll ever be elected though. If he doesn't make it in the first few years his chances will be hurt greatly by the other players from those 90's teams that are locks for election. The writers will elect less deserving players over him because they don't want too many guys from those teams. Not as good a player as Winfield but I'd make Bernie my top choice among non active players.
21 - Paul O'Neill - No. 9 years in New York. I'd put him behind Bernie. One of the biggest problems I see with Pauly is the exact opposite of the 70's guys, there will be too many numbers retired from the 90's teams. I think he's the odd man out in this group.
24 - Tino Martinez - No. Not enough time in New York, 7 years. He's behind O'Neill.
42 - Mariano Rivera - Yes. He's the best there is at what he does. I think he should get a monument too.
13 - Arod - Yes. When the contract is over it will mean 14 years as a Yankee (more than Dimaggio and 1 less than Ruth) and I have a strong feeling he'll play beyond that. Unless he opts out again and pisses everyone off he'll have a monument next to Jeter's.
20 - Posada - Yes. I think so. He never played as a catcher until he was in the minors so his knees are still relatively young. He'll probably be a first basemen in a couple years and will add to his numbers and his Hall of Fame credentials.
35 - Mussina - No. I think he's a Hall of Famer right now. No pitcher with 250 wins and 100 games over .500 has been denied entry yet. I think he needs 2 or 3 more good years and a ring or 2 as a Yankee to get his number retired. I like Mussina a lot as a player and if anyone is smart enough to learn new tricks as a pitcher it's him. He doesn't make the cut for a retired number.
46 - Andy Pettite - Yes. Another 90's guy with a strong case. 4 rings. 200+ wins. People have already forgotten he spent 3 years with Houston. If he doesn't retire early he'll get 50+ more wins playing in New York and I think that will also put him over the edge to Cooperstown. He's a better choice than Guidry. 2 more good years and I'd say yes to Cooperstown and Yankee immortality.
24 - Robinson Cano - Too early to tell, but he's definitely on his way.
40 - Wang - Needs another 10 years.
My monument park would have 18 number's retired right now and 6 more guys that are still active that I would say yes to. A few of those are repeated numbers though. 7 guys get a maybe vote. I'd have to do serious research and if I were part of a committee I might go either way on them. A few guys like Nettles and Keller would become yes votes for me if they ever make the Hall of Fame. That sure is a lot of names up there, but you don't win 39 pennants and 26 series without a lot of talent. I tried to include anyone who I heard mentioned or considered. I'm probably leaving out a few guys and I hope you guys will remind me who they are. I want to see what other people think.
Scott
I think a debate over who's jersey number should be retired is all about what your own personal standards are. If your standards are only the greatest of the great and top tier Hall of Famers then your list is 4, 3, 5, 7, 8 (once), and maybe 16. If your standard is Hall of Famers with 10+ years on the team there are 7 guys already retired that wouldn't make your list although I think Billy Martin might make the Hall someday. If you think Maris, Reggie and Guidry are well within the standards for having your number retired then there might be a dozen more guys that should be included with them.
Compared to the many Yankee's fans Ive talked to about this I think my standards are in the middle, not too conservative and not too liberal. I'm basically looking for 9 or 10 years with the Yankees and a Hall of Fame caliber career. Not all those years need to be with the Yankees, but most of their best years should be with the team. I made a few exceptions for special circumstances though. I wish I had that book that lists all the numbers the retired players wore, maybe someone can help with those. I have 3 levels: yes, no, and maybe. That's pretty self explanatory. I grouped them loosely by era's.
Here are my thoughts on the already retired Yankee numbers:
4 - Gehrig - Of course.
3 - Ruth - Yes. Greatest player ever and turned the Yankees from the Devil Rays into well, the Yankees.
5 - DiMaggio - Yup.
7 - Mantle - Yup.
37 - Stengel - Yes. 7 rings.
8 - Yogi - Yes. Will Yogi get a monument like Mantle? I think he might. He's a top tier Hall of Famer. Maybe those should be reserved for the best of the best guys like Ruth and Gehrig but Yogi isn't too far back. He's maybe the greatest catcher ever, him or Bench IMO. And he's absolutely loved by both the players and the fans. 10 rings don't hurt either.
8 - Dickey - Yes.
16 - Ford - Yes.
15 - Munson - Yes. The tragedy of his death, being an excellent player and being the captain makes this a deserving honor. IMO he's behind Bench and Fisk, and possibly Ted Simmons for 70's catchers.
9 - Maris - Maybe. This is where the borderline started. I'm 75/25 against this one. He didn't play very long with the Yanks (7 years). I think the reasons he got this honor is because George was mad he didn't get elected to the Hall of Fame and he wanted to kiss up to the fans and ex-players. He was never close to being a Hall of Famer. 3 great years and 2 very good ones is not a Hall of Famer. The people that thought he was were mostly ignorant fans, and George panders to ignorant fans and is kind of ignorant himself. The 2 MVP's with the Yankees are what would make me consider him.
32 - Elston Howard - Maybe. Borderline, but I'm ok with it. 13 years with the team. If not for Berra or the color of his skin he might have been starting as early as 1952 or 53, also being the first black player on the team is a bonus for him.
10 - Rizzuto - Yes. I think it's deserving. Hall of Famer that played his whole career in New York. 13 years with the team plus 2 more years missed to WW2. Also gets extra credit for being a long time announcer.
1 - Martin - Yes. I agree with this one too. 7 years as a player and 7 more as a manager, although a few of those weren't full seasons. The guy was so proud of being a Yankee he had "I may not have been the greatest Yankee to put on the uniform but I was the proudest" engraved on his tombstone. That has to count for something. And he was a great manager, not good, great. And I loved him growing up and it's my list.
44 - Reggie - No. Bad choice. Reggie's Hall Of Fame plaque should have him in an A's hat. He's a smart guy and he knew that having that NY on his Hall of Fame plaque would mean more dollars in his pocket. 5 years with the Yankees is just not long enough. I think his selection is the worst by far. His best years were with Oakland and 5 years with the Yankees is waaaay too short.
23 - Mattingly - Yes. I'm fine with this one. He carried the Yankees torch for a long time. I wish he could have one won, but they might not have been there without Tino in 1996. Played from 1982 to 1995 with no pennants, then coached from 2004-2007 with no pennants. They won pennants in the years before and after he played and won their last pennant before he came back as the hitting coach. I've heard a lot of people say Arod needs to win a series before he should be honored but then have no problems with Mattingly. Kinda strange.
49 - Guidry - No. Not as bad as Reggie but I don't agree with this one. 14 years with the club and he was there for the 4 pennants from 76-81. I'd put him behind Nettles in a player to player comparison. He was great during those 2 championship years, but didn't have enough great years beyond those.
42 - Jackie Robinson - No. It's honorary. I'm a huge Jackie Robinson fan. I've read 7 or 8 books about him and have his picture on my wall. I've even met his wife several times (she lives 10 minutes from me). I just don't really like having his number retired throughout baseball. I'm not trying to take anything away from him but I just think the whole thing is a little forced and manufactured.
Here's my list of guys I've heard mentioned over the years:
Early years:
Jack Chesbro - Nope. And didn't wear a number. No plaque either.
20's and 30's era:
Joe McCarthy - Yes. 7 rings. If Stengel why not McCarthy? I'm not sure he wore a number though.
Tony Lazzeri - Yes. 12 years in New York. I'm kind of on the fence but I'd be in favor of this one.
Earle Combs - No. 12 years with the team. 9 full seasons. I think his selection to the Hall of Fame is borderline. He's behind Lazzeri and the 4 pitchers below.
Bob Meusel - No. 10 years in New York.
Joe Dugan - No. 7 years in New York.
Quick Note: If any of the next 4 pitchers pitched in the last 40 years their numbers would have been retired.
Red Ruffing - Yes. After Ford he's probably the best non active pitcher the Yankees have ever had. 231 wins plus 2 years missed during WW2 and I'm not sure why, he was way over the draft age. Does anyone know why Ruffing missed 43 and 44? Was it a war job or something? He has a plaque but his number should also be retired.
Herb Pennock - Maybe. 11 years in New York. Hall of Famer. 240 wins during the Ruth era. He's behind Ruffing, but he's still a decent choice.
Waite Hoyt - Maybe. 10 years in New York. Hall of Famer. 237 wins in Ruth's era. I'd put him slightly above Pennock and behind Ruffing.
Lefty Gomez - Maybe. 13 years in New York. He's a maybe on my list and about even with Hoyt. Hall of Famer, 189 wins, 5 rings, and 7 time all-star and would have made the team in '31 and '32. He's about equal with Pettite in career numbers.
Carl Mays - No. 5 years with the Yanks. I think the argument for him being in the Hall of Fame is very interesting though.
Red Rolfe - Nah.
Frank Crosetti - Yes. I am very much in favor of this one. He played for 17 years with the Yankees (the last two he appeared in very few games), and he won 7 rings as a player. He was a good if not great player. On top of that he spent 20 years as a Yankee coach. He was with the team for 23 pennants and 17 world series wins. He received so many rings they started giving him engraved shotguns instead. He was with the club from 1932 until 1968 and holds the team record for service time. He was there from Ruth and Gehrig and Dimaggio through to Mantle. He at least deserves a plaque like the ones erected for Mel Allen and Bob Sheppard.
40's and 50's:
Charlie Keller - Maybe. I've seen some pretty convincing arguments for him to be enshrined in Cooperstown. 11 years with the team and 1 1/2 missed years due to WW2. He's a better choice than several guys who's numbers have been retired already.
Joe Gordon - No. 7 years in New York. Missed 2+ years to WW2. He's behind Keller.
Tommy Henrich - Nope. 11 years with the Yankees.
Allie Reynolds - No. 8 years in New York.
Eddie Lopat - No. 8 years in New York.
Hank Bauer - No. 12 very good years with the team, but not good enough for me.
Moose Skowron - No. 9 years in pinstripes. A better player than Bauer and his numbers would be better if he didn't play for Stengel. He still falls short.
60's, 70's, and 80's:
Catfish Hunter - Nah. 5 years with the team. Same boat as Reggie.
Graig Nettles - Maybe. 11 years with New York. He was there for all 4 pennants. I think he's at least as deserving as Guidry, probably more. He's more deserving than Reggie. This is one of those if them then this guy arguments for me.
Willie Randolph - No. He's in the same category as Nettles and Guidry, but not as good a player as Nettles. 13 years in New York. All 4 pennants.
Goose Gossage - No. Not long enough with the team, 6 years. Same group as Nettles, Guidry, and Randolph. It's kind of strange that those teams from 1976-1981 had so many guys that IMO are close to Yankee immortality but not quite good enough as players for me.
Bobby Murcer - No. 13 years for the Bombers. Another guy from those 70's teams but he missed the championship years. I put him about even with Guidry, I wouldn't vote for them but if they got the honor I wouldn't be mad. Murcer, like Mattingly, was also a torch bearer through many lean years for the Yankees. I really like him as an announcer and I hope he gets well.
Dave Winfield - Yes. I think he's the best retired player who's number isn't retired yet. 9 years with the team and he should get credit for more years. What George III did to him was reprehensible and without that garbage he might have stayed for another few years.
90's to today:
2 - Jeter - Yup. He'll have a monument too.
6 - Torre - Yeah. 4 rings.
51 - Bernie Williams - Yes. 16 years service. Played his whole career here and was a hell of a player. He's a better choice than Maris, Reggie, Guidry, Howard and almost all the other retired guys who's numbers haven't been retired. I think if he wasn't so stubborn and came back in 2007 and then hooked up with another team for a couple years his career numbers would have improved enough to make a more solid case for his election to the Hall of Fame. I don't know if he'll ever be elected though. If he doesn't make it in the first few years his chances will be hurt greatly by the other players from those 90's teams that are locks for election. The writers will elect less deserving players over him because they don't want too many guys from those teams. Not as good a player as Winfield but I'd make Bernie my top choice among non active players.
21 - Paul O'Neill - No. 9 years in New York. I'd put him behind Bernie. One of the biggest problems I see with Pauly is the exact opposite of the 70's guys, there will be too many numbers retired from the 90's teams. I think he's the odd man out in this group.
24 - Tino Martinez - No. Not enough time in New York, 7 years. He's behind O'Neill.
42 - Mariano Rivera - Yes. He's the best there is at what he does. I think he should get a monument too.
13 - Arod - Yes. When the contract is over it will mean 14 years as a Yankee (more than Dimaggio and 1 less than Ruth) and I have a strong feeling he'll play beyond that. Unless he opts out again and pisses everyone off he'll have a monument next to Jeter's.
20 - Posada - Yes. I think so. He never played as a catcher until he was in the minors so his knees are still relatively young. He'll probably be a first basemen in a couple years and will add to his numbers and his Hall of Fame credentials.
35 - Mussina - No. I think he's a Hall of Famer right now. No pitcher with 250 wins and 100 games over .500 has been denied entry yet. I think he needs 2 or 3 more good years and a ring or 2 as a Yankee to get his number retired. I like Mussina a lot as a player and if anyone is smart enough to learn new tricks as a pitcher it's him. He doesn't make the cut for a retired number.
46 - Andy Pettite - Yes. Another 90's guy with a strong case. 4 rings. 200+ wins. People have already forgotten he spent 3 years with Houston. If he doesn't retire early he'll get 50+ more wins playing in New York and I think that will also put him over the edge to Cooperstown. He's a better choice than Guidry. 2 more good years and I'd say yes to Cooperstown and Yankee immortality.
24 - Robinson Cano - Too early to tell, but he's definitely on his way.
40 - Wang - Needs another 10 years.
My monument park would have 18 number's retired right now and 6 more guys that are still active that I would say yes to. A few of those are repeated numbers though. 7 guys get a maybe vote. I'd have to do serious research and if I were part of a committee I might go either way on them. A few guys like Nettles and Keller would become yes votes for me if they ever make the Hall of Fame. That sure is a lot of names up there, but you don't win 39 pennants and 26 series without a lot of talent. I tried to include anyone who I heard mentioned or considered. I'm probably leaving out a few guys and I hope you guys will remind me who they are. I want to see what other people think.
Scott
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