So Much Pressure on Yanks' Kids

[johnnypapa]

They better get used to it. They're not going to learn to deal with pressure at the minor league level, and they're not going to adjust to major league hitters at the minor league level.

We've seen plenty of flashes of brilliance from both Kennedy and Hughes to know that it's "in there" somewhere, they just have yet to put it together completely this season.

No better way to learn than the "hard way." Build some character early on, if they don't have it already.

Or become so shell shocked that they lose all confidence. I said in another post I would have been perfectly happy to get two journyman pitchers to take the pounding that Hughes and Kennedy are now getting. If they weren't ready, Cash should have let the fans know that we are in rebuilding mode and kept them in the minors for more seasoning. I've seen somethings from Hughes but Kennedy does look overmatched.

[bigbadwolf]

I was saying the same thing when the Yankees brought them up at the end of last year. This year I don't mind them getting their feet wet as the MLB level as long as it don't destroy their confidence and it helps the team in the long run. You can't expect the Yankees to make the playoffs every year if you use your farm system.

Chamberlain and Kennedy did pitch at the college level where the programs is considered around AA ball.

Don't worry about the kids geting shell shocked. They are all joek WIN METHOD players, With more still to come.

[VIBaseball]

Don't worry about the kids geting shell shocked. They are all joek WIN METHOD players, With more still to come.

Gee, and here I was thinking that they were Damon Oppenheimer players.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/02/24/2008-02-24_scoutmaster_in_the_bronx_oppenheimer_fin.html?page=0

Actually, it's interesting to see that this article mentions how Oppenheimer points to a prospect's mental makeup as a key factor in his decisionmaking (central to the WM, we are told). But I have to believe this is Oppenheimer's philosophy. He is surely not a ventriloquist's dummy.

Guess who was his mentor, and Brian Cashman's? That's right, Gene Michael -- the true architect of the late '90s dynasty.

[bigbadwolf]

Cashman, Michaels and the whole lot did what George Steinbrenner told them to do.

[VIBaseball]

Cashman, Michaels and the whole lot did what George Steinbrenner told them to do.

We've been over some of this ground before. The key period when the dynasty's foundation was laid was when The Boss was suspended. At that time, Michael was able to change the culture and focus on the farm system. It's widely recognized that he had free rein.

However, I'll grant that Steinbrenner surely wasn't sitting by idly. This article also has an interesting comment:

"When Steinbrenner was suspended from baseball in the early 90's, Michael did not tell Fay Vincent, then the commissioner, what Steinbrenner was doing in violation of terms of his suspension. Vincent, at the time, heard that Michael kept a little black book detailing his communications with Steinbrenner but was never able to obtain it."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/02/sports/baseball/02chass.html

However, the same author, Murray Chass wrote this in 1992:

"Under the July 30, 1990, agreement, Steinbrenner was not permitted to "confer, consult, advise or otherwise communicate, either directly or indirectly" with club employees on matters involving the Yankees or baseball.

In his inquiry, Vincent and his aides interviewed high-ranking club officials and middle-level employees. Yankee employees said that more than one employee had told of communications with Steinbrenner during the 22 months he has been out of the front office. But the commissioner, according to one of the people involved in the interviewing, determined that the communications did not involve substantive matters that were significant in the operation of the club."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7DC1330F930A35754C0A964958260

Gene Michael was his own man. He made the Yankees great again because he was free from meddling.

[TonyStarks]

Cashman, Michaels and the whole lot did what George Steinbrenner told them to do.

I'd double check that BBW. Because Stick was pretty much flying free since The Boss was suspended.

In case you forgot, George wanted Stick to trade Bernie early on and Stick was constantly making excuses that people didn't want Bernie and things of that nature.

Give credit to Stick, he was the architect....George signed the checks...and Stick ran the organization.

[Pinstripes]

Twenty- three year old Philip Hughes has pitched 275 innings in the minors. Twenty-three year old Ian Kennedy has pitched 149 innings in the minors. Twenty-two year old Joba Chamberlain has pitched 88 innings in the minors.

Hughes has pitched 28.7 innings at Triple A.
Chamberlain has pitched 8 innings at Triple A.
Kennedy has pitched 34.7 innings at Triple A.

There is much that can be learned pitching in the minors, which is why the minors exist.

Hughes is 21 (just for correction sake). Kennedy and Joba pitched in college, which is in essence a level of the minors.

They've pitched enough. All three have had little to no struggles at the minor league level. You tell me exactly what's left to learn down there when you've already established you can get out minor league hitters?

Joba clearly needs no further time in the minors, so let's just address Hughes and Kennedy:

They need to continue to pitch against MAJOR league hitters. They've proven they can get minor league hitters out. They've even shown that they are capable of pitching well in the majors, they're just off to a bad start.

They have both shown that one of their best qualities is command of their pitches - throwing strikes and hitting their spots. Every time so far this season that they've struggled it's becuase they're getting behind batters, walking hitters, missing their spots, etc. They simply need to tighten up their command.

For whatever reason, they've failed to execute on their location. I don't see how going to the minors is going to help them do something they've shown they're already capable of doing.

IF they were executing their pitches, hitting spots, commanding the ball as best they could and they were still getting knocked around, then there's a problem. They are clearly not executing pitches. It's not that they have more to learn about pitching. The things they need to learn can only be learned through experience at the major league level at this point.

If they weren't polished - if they hadn't already shown the command and control that they showed us in the minor leagues and at times last season in the majors, then maybe I'd say they need more time. But again, the issues their dealing with are likley issues of adjusting to "life as a big leaguer" and coping with being depended on as a key part of the rotation. That alone can be reason enough to have them out of whack this early on.

You can't judge by a few bad starts whether or not they need more time in the minor leagues. A combination of various factors, inlcuding temperature, rain, adjusting to the rigorous travel schedule the Yankees have been put under early on, adjusting to big league life, the pressure, etc, etc can all be critical factors to their struggles so far.

I just don't think that having them go down to AAA, where they'll almost definitely have some measure of success will teach them anything about what it's like to face and pitch to major league hitters.

Again, if they struggled at any point in their minor league careers, if it looked at any point like their command wasn't "good enough" yet, then I'd say I think they belong at AAA for more seasoning. However we've seen them establish (Hughes at various times last year and in the postseason, and Kennedy in his three starts last year, his relief appearance in his scratched start in KC, and in his quality start in Tampa Bay) that they are indeed capable of the kind of command and control of both their fastballs and off-speed pitches necessary to be moderately successful at the big league level.

Facing more AAA hitters just to get their confidence up isn't going to make their transition to the majors any easier when it finally does happen. If anything, it only sets them back developmentally by keeping them somewhere that they've already proven capable of handling.

(EDIT: I also would add that Kennedy and Hughes have had pathetic run support - in Hughes' starts the Yankees have scored a total of 16 runs - 4 runs per game, and in the games in which Kennedy has appeared the Yankees have scored 12 total runs - 3 runs per game. It's easier to pitch when your team scores some runs for you and puts you ahead. In Hughes' last start in Baltimore, he held the Orioles to one run until the 6th inning... the offense only gave him one run of support through the first 6 innings.)

[LouGehrig]

We simply disagree. Repetition can produce efficiency, but at the major league level, it can produce problems that could have been avoided.

Let's say David Clyde is facing Yaz or Carew. That is certainly different from facing a Triple A batter.

Many pitchers are intimidated when facing Yaz or Carew. They will not throw with the same ease as in the minors. They learn in the minors to handle the best the minors have to offer, and then try to translate that to the majors.

Few inexperienced pitchers master their craft quickly.

[johnnypapa]

Hughes is 21 (just for correction sake). Kennedy and Joba pitched in college, which is in essence a level of the minors.

They've pitched enough. All three have had little to no struggles at the minor league level. You tell me exactly what's left to learn down there when you've already established you can get out minor league hitters?

Not so much learning.....kind of protecting them from more abuse so they don't lose their confidence. Kennedy especially sometimes looks like a deer in the headlights.

Joba clearly needs no further time in the minors, so let's just address Hughes and Kennedy:

They need to continue to pitch against MAJOR league hitters. They've proven they can get minor league hitters out. They've even shown that they are capable of pitching well in the majors, they're just off to a bad start.

They have both shown that one of their best qualities is command of their pitches - throwing strikes and hitting their spots. Every time so far this season that they've struggled it's becuase they're getting behind batters, walking hitters, missing their spots, etc. They simply need to tighten up their command.

Well that's the question....can they tighten up their command. As far as Hughes...I can't use the near no hitter because that is just as much a product of the hitters not seeing him. Kennedy throws high eighties so if he does not have contol now.....

For whatever reason, they've failed to execute on their location. I don't see how going to the minors is going to help them do something they've shown they're already capable of doing.

See above.

IF they were executing their pitches, hitting spots, commanding the ball as best they could and they were still getting knocked around, then there's a problem. They are clearly not executing pitches. It's not that they have more to learn about pitching. The things they need to learn can only be learned through experience at the major league level at this point.

If they weren't polished - if they hadn't already shown the command and control that they showed us in the minor leagues and at times last season in the majors, then maybe I'd say they need more time. But again, the issues their dealing with are likley issues of adjusting to "life as a big leaguer" and coping with being depended on as a key part of the rotation. That alone can be reason enough to have them out of whack this early on.

You can't judge by a few bad starts whether or not they need more time in the minor leagues. A combination of various factors, inlcuding temperature, rain, adjusting to the rigorous travel schedule the Yankees have been put under early on, adjusting to big league life, the pressure, etc, etc can all be critical factors to their struggles so far.

This is the kind of excuses that I can't buy....that game in KC where Joe did not start Kennedy because of the weather....meanwhile Zack Greinke, whose what, a year older then Kennedy goes out and pitches a complete game. It just seems frustrating that there are all these rules for the young Yankee pitchers that you don't seem to have with other teams.

I just don't think that having them go down to AAA, where they'll almost definitely have some measure of success will teach them anything about what it's like to face and pitch to major league hitters.


(EDIT: I also would add that Kennedy and Hughes have had pathetic run support - in Hughes' starts the Yankees have scored a total of 16 runs - 4 runs per game, and in the games in which Kennedy has appeared the Yankees have scored 12 total runs - 3 runs per game. It's easier to pitch when your team scores some runs for you and puts you ahead. In Hughes' last start in Baltimore, he held the Orioles to one run until the 6th inning... the offense only gave him one run of support through the first 6 innings.)

It would have to be some offense to cover up eras over 8.

How long do you give them before going to plan B?...I can't see them staying in the rotation and getting hammered just to prove that Cash did not make a mistake in not getting Santana.

[Pinstripes]

This is the kind of excuses that I can't buy....that game in KC where Joe did not start Kennedy because of the weather....meanwhile Zack Greinke, whose what, a year older then Kennedy goes out and pitches a complete game. It just seems frustrating that there are all these rules for the young Yankee pitchers that you don't seem to have with other teams.

Weather affects different pitchers differently. Additionally, Kennedy came in to a relief role. That could have thrown him off a bit, too. Not to mention Greinke (24) has been up and down in the majors for parts of five seasons now. He's not a rookie making his first transition to the majors like Kennedy and Hughes are. Greinke has already started 75 career games pitching 475 major league innings. Hardly a rookie.

As for the "rules" - I disagree. There are plenty of rules. Buchholz was shut down last season after 150 innings. He's got a limit again this year, for sure, and he's 23 (turns 24 in August). All these teams have rules regarding most of their youngsters. The issue is that most of them either aren't in the majors yet becuase they haven't been successful at the minor league level, or if they are in the majors they don't publicize what those limits are. Not to mention we just don't follow other teams as closely as we follow the Yankees, so we're not as aware of the young players as much.

It would have to be some offense to cover up eras over 8.

That's not the point. The point is that when you don't get your pitcher any runs, it makes it harder to pitch. A lot of times, the first team to score a run or two starts the snowball rolling. When that happens, it's not only easier for them to score runs with the ice broken, but it's harder for the other team's offense being behind. If Hughes or Kennedy could have gotten some early leads here and there, they might have been able to find a bit of a groove, and who knows what would happen. If you're going to tell me pitching with a 4 or 5 run lead early on is the same as pitching in a 0-0 ballgame, I have to strongly disagree. It can take a lot of pressure off a pitcher, and can put more pressure on the opposing offense to press and try and make something happen. Many "bad" offenses will have a very difficult time coming back when they're staked to a 4 or 5 run defecit.

How long do you give them before going to plan B?...I can't see them staying in the rotation and getting hammered just to prove that Cash did not make a mistake in not getting Santana.

How long? I'll tell ya, a hell of a lot longer than 3 or 4 starts. We're talking at least 7 or 8 (and probably closer to 10-12) before we start thinking about other options.

Hughes and Kennedy may not be on their game yet, but they've had a couple starts each where they gave the team a chance to win. Kennedy has only made three starts. One was a 6 inning, 3 ER performance against Tampa Bay on April 14th that the Yankees won. Tampa Bay is a fairly good offense.

Hughes pitched 6 innings, 2 ER against Toronto.

It's just way too early (3-4 starts a piece) to start drawing conclusions about these guys ability to pitch at the major league level. It's amazing how reactionary people can be to slow starts, slumps, and bad stretches.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Maybe now Posada's back, Hughes and Kennedy will pitch better. I won't say that Molina is not a good backstop, but Posada (with more than ten years of experience under his belt) can call a good game for those youngsters.

[Evangelion]

Maybe now Posada's back, Hughes and Kennedy will pitch better. I won't say that Molina is not a good backstop, but Posada (with more than ten years of experience under his belt) can call a good game for those youngsters.

Very difficult to measure a catcher's important from a outside perspective. I remember the debates people had regarding Jason Varitek's importance to Red Sox as a catcher and game calling abilities, which us, as fan, have a difficult time gauge it's importance. Same case could be made here with Posada. We'll have to wait and see how the young pitchers perform with Posada behind the plate more regularly for their starts. Offensively, Molina and Moeller did a good job, but how they call a game? We can only speculate on the matter.

[Yankeebiscuitfan]

Very difficult to measure a catcher's important from a outside perspective. I remember the debates people had regarding Jason Varitek's importance to Red Sox as a catcher and game calling abilities, which us, as fan, have a difficult time gauge it's importance. Same case could be made here with Posada. We'll have to wait and see how the young pitchers perform with Posada behind the plate more regularly for their starts. Offensively, Molina and Moeller did a good job, but how they call a game? We can only speculate on the matter.

Sure. Maybe it is wishful thinking from my side...

[johnnypapa]

It's just way too early (3-4 starts a piece) to start drawing conclusions about these guys ability to pitch at the major league level. It's amazing how reactionary people can be to slow starts, slumps, and bad stretches.

Hey Pinstripes...all good points you made. I don't know....I don't consider myself as being drastically reactionary. Been a Yankee fan since the early sixties and have been there through some pretty bad times and the good times. But I think in this situation people compare to what might have been.....Santana. That was a major change in direction the Yankees took. I guess when you pass on Johan Santana in favor of Hughes and Kennedy......some people might expect them to be pretty special and so far...not so. Hey I'm rooting for them believe me....we need them to pitch well.

[bigbadwolf]

Sometimes a player cannot be instantly special. Lets see how the season evolves. Many things in life need a little aging.