Plan? What Plan?

[dougj1]

Let's see. Cashman was going to make a youth movement to poe that "Youth" is the way to go. Of course he didn't say the real reason was the fact that he made some of the most dreadful deals involving veterans, and since he had an inexperienced loose cannon as a boss, he could cover up the mistakes with this new strategy....... Look what we have: a couple of brittle young pitchers that have proven nothing and the one good young one is going to the SP , leaving the poor quality bullpen in tatters.......Of course,if he had signed Colon whch I wrote about before he made his debut with the Sox, Yanks SP problem would have been lessened. But,Cash does not have any "old men" in his "PLAN". Just what exactly is his plan besides some brave words about "having complete control" of the club? All I see is disorder, confusion , chaos and embarrassing losses.

[TonyStarks]

Let's see. Cashman was going to make a youth movement to poe that "Youth" is the way to go. Of course he didn't say the real reason was the fact that he made some of the most dreadful deals involving veterans, and since he had an inexperienced loose cannon as a boss, he could cover up the mistakes with this new strategy....... Look what we have: a couple of brittle young pitchers that have proven nothing and the one good young one is going to the SP , leaving the poor quality bullpen in tatters.......Of course,if he had signed Colon whch I wrote about before he made his debut with the Sox, Yanks SP problem would have been lessened. But,Cash does not have any "old men" in his "PLAN". Just what exactly is his plan besides some brave words about "having complete control" of the club? All I see is disorder, confusion , chaos and embarrassing losses.

Your screaming, "ICEBERG! Straight Ahead!" and it's not that serious right now.

After seeing Wang, Cano, and Joba especially why not go that route. Hell, the Red Sox were doing it too.

The Youth movement was because other teams were also going that way.
It was also due to the escalating salaries and the payroll. Cashman has for some time now tried to chop away at the Yankees salary.

You should relax man. Young pitchers do not come out of the farm throwing darts and posting ERAs in the 2s. It takes time to develop pitchers.

If Cashman had signed Colon, I think must of us would have scratched our collective heads at the move since that was exactly what we've been complaining about. Old pitchers who implode once they get to Yankee stadium. It's a very long list: Kenny Rogers, Javy Vazquez, Denny Neagle, Randy Johnson, Jose Contreras, Kevin Brown, Sidney Ponson...the list just goes on. I don't want to see anymore signings like these. I prefer to see the Arms of the farm come up. As long as IPK, Hughes or if it's Horne are all getting experience that's all that matters. Look at the big picture. I'd rather lose with Hughes, than lose with Colon!


Right now the Yankees are playing their best ball of the year...sans yesterday. That was just a bad game and let's hope we don't see another one like that for some time.


PS: The Plan..is Wang, Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, Horne. I think that has been Cashman's plan if all goes well and accordingly.

[Evangelion]

Of course,if he had signed Colon whch I wrote about before he made his debut with the Sox, Yanks SP problem would have been lessened. But,Cash does not have any "old men" in his "PLAN". Just what exactly is his plan besides some brave words about "having complete control" of the club? All I see is disorder, confusion , chaos and embarrassing losses.

The backbone of your argument is that Cashman and the Yankees did not sign Colon?

You are aware Colon faced the worst offense in AL and perhaps MLB in Kansas City, then proceed to face the inept Seattle Mariners, if you watched over the weekend, are a terrible baseball team. Colon looking good, but Colon's effectiveness could not have been predicted before the season. It's ridiculous you would criticize not signing Colon during the winter.

[DoubleX]

Let's see. Cashman was going to make a youth movement to poe that "Youth" is the way to go. Of course he didn't say the real reason was the fact that he made some of the most dreadful deals involving veterans, and since he had an inexperienced loose cannon as a boss, he could cover up the mistakes with this new strategy....... Look what we have: a couple of brittle young pitchers that have proven nothing and the one good young one is going to the SP , leaving the poor quality bullpen in tatters.......Of course,if he had signed Colon whch I wrote about before he made his debut with the Sox, Yanks SP problem would have been lessened. But,Cash does not have any "old men" in his "PLAN". Just what exactly is his plan besides some brave words about "having complete control" of the club? All I see is disorder, confusion , chaos and embarrassing losses.

It's interesting that you lament Cashman's poor veteran signings, and then say he should have signed Colon. Given Colon's recent track record and health, there was a good chance that Colon would just be the next mediocre veteran to come in and waste a roster spot. The Sox took a chance on Colon, good for him, but there's a reason that there was very little interest in signing Colon from all of baseball and that he had to settle for a minor league deal with absolutely no guarantee that he'd make it back to the Majors. Bartolo Colon is not the answer to this team's problems.

[dougj1]

Tanks for your strong reply to my comments. It's too bad your statements are based on half truths.......Let's get the Colon situation in full perspective. I have stated before , that Colon was signed to a minor league contract of 18K a month, with no guarantee of making it to the majors and with his right to walk away by the end of May...His signing, unlike the other veteran failures, had the great advantage of a 2 month "tryout" before buying....Yet, you consider this as a move that would have wasted a roster space.Really? You mean like Hawkins? Like Farnsworth? Like Traber? Like Abaladejo? Like Ohlendorf? If Yanks had Colon, Joba could stay in the pen until someone could take his setup spot...Colon may break down again, so what. He has won more games than Kennedy and Hughes combined....You state Colon is not the answer to Yanks problems. You are right. There isn't any one player in the world that could solve all the problems they have...You refuse to acknowledge that he would have made a contribution, albeit a small one....The only thing the club has going for them right now is the fact there isn't an outstanding team in the league...Cashmans rigid postion about young players will come back to haunt this team next year as well. Hughes and Kennedy havn't shown they are physically capable of pitching an entire season in the majors and especially as winning pitchers...If you think the Yanks won't be going after some proven SPs over the winter, maybe even sooner, you will be wrong.No team can be built with only rookies. A good GM can pick up the right vets to balance out the team, but not if he sticks to an unrealistic plan.

[DoubleX]

Tanks for your strong reply to my comments. It's too bad your statements are based on half truths.......Let's get the Colon situation in full perspective. I have stated before , that Colon was signed to a minor league contract of 18K a month, with no guarantee of making it to the majors and with his right to walk away by the end of May...His signing, unlike the other veteran failures, had the great advantage of a 2 month "tryout" before buying....Yet, you consider this as a move that would have wasted a roster space.Really? You mean like Hawkins? Like Farnsworth? Like Traber? Like Abaladejo? Like Ohlendorf? If Yanks had Colon, Joba could stay in the pen until someone could take his setup spot...Colon may break down again, so what. He has won more games than Kennedy and Hughes combined....You state Colon is not the answer to Yanks problems. You are right. There isn't any one player in the world that could solve all the problems they have...You refuse to acknowledge that he would have made a contribution, albeit a small one....The only thing the club has going for them right now is the fact there isn't an outstanding team in the league...Cashmans rigid postion about young players will come back to haunt this team next year as well. Hughes and Kennedy havn't shown they are physically capable of pitching an entire season in the majors and especially as winning pitchers...If you think the Yanks won't be going after some proven SPs over the winter, maybe even sooner, you will be wrong.No team can be built with only rookies. A good GM can pick up the right vets to balance out the team, but not if he sticks to an unrealistic plan.

And how do you know he would have made a contribution? Based on his 6.34 ERA last year and his 5.11 ERA the year before? Based on his poor conditioning and excess weight? Sure, it may have been a low risk/high reward type signing, but it just doesn't make sense to lament so much on the failure to sign Bartolo Colon. The team has much bigger problems then its failure to sign a 35 year old pitcher that looked and performed terribly over the past couple of seasons.

Hughes and Kennedy are also 21 and 23 respectively, ages when most pitchers are still developing in the minors. To write them off at this stage of their careers and deride them for being unable to pitch a full ML season at this point completely disregards baseball history and how pitchers develop. Take a look at your beloved Bartolo Colon. You know where he was at age 21? Pitching rookie league ball. What about at age 23? Mostly in AA, except for 15 IP at AAA where his ERA was 6.00. Moreover, Colon never had as much success in the minors as Hughes and Kennedy, and the most innings he pitched in the minors in a year was 129, or about 40 less than Kennedy pitched last year and about 20 less than Hughes pitched in 2006. Here's another example - ever look at Johan Santana's ERA his first year in the Majors? 6.49. This is not meant to say that Hughes and Kennedy will be as good as Colon was, just meant to illustrate that it takes time for pitchers develop and that both are ahead of where Colon was at this stage of his career.

Finally, I suggest you dial down the tone of your posts.

[Westlake]

It's pointless to argue with someone with a set agenda against a certain General Manager. If they lose, it's his fault. If they win, it will be despite him.

[TonyStarks]

Tanks for your strong reply to my comments. It's too bad your statements are based on half truths.......Let's get the Colon situation in full perspective. I have stated before , that Colon was signed to a minor league contract of 18K a month, with no guarantee of making it to the majors and with his right to walk away by the end of May...His signing, unlike the other veteran failures, had the great advantage of a 2 month "tryout" before buying....Yet, you consider this as a move that would have wasted a roster space.Really? You mean like Hawkins? Like Farnsworth? Like Traber? Like Abaladejo? Like Ohlendorf? If Yanks had Colon, Joba could stay in the pen until someone could take his setup spot...Colon may break down again, so what. He has won more games than Kennedy and Hughes combined....You state Colon is not the answer to Yanks problems. You are right. There isn't any one player in the world that could solve all the problems they have...You refuse to acknowledge that he would have made a contribution, albeit a small one....The only thing the club has going for them right now is the fact there isn't an outstanding team in the league...Cashmans rigid postion about young players will come back to haunt this team next year as well. Hughes and Kennedy havn't shown they are physically capable of pitching an entire season in the majors and especially as winning pitchers...If you think the Yanks won't be going after some proven SPs over the winter, maybe even sooner, you will be wrong.No team can be built with only rookies. A good GM can pick up the right vets to balance out the team, but not if he sticks to an unrealistic plan.

You make it sound so easy. "Pick up the right vets"...and who exactly are the right vets? Is this going to turn into a Paul O'Neill argument?

And what exactly is this "unrealistic" plan? That Hughes, Kennedy and Joba will be complete duds as ML Starters?

[dougj1]

XX- You suggest I dial down the tone of my posts? Listen mister, if you don't like my posts just pass me by or better yet, ask one of the mods to drop me off this forum.....Guys like you refuse to see anything but the almighty word of Cashman. You have lost your objectivity....Starks- by unrealistic I mean starting a season with 2 absolutely unproven starting pitchers especially when you know one of them is brittle with repeated injuries, when one would have been prudent. That's what I am talking about.There was plenty of time to have brought up Kennedy later in the season if you had another vet starting pitcher at the begining of the year...Cashman has proven for years that he has trouble putting together a pitching staff.Then again, you're not interested in a different point of view so I won't bother wasting your time or mine.

[DoubleX]

XX- You suggest I dial down the tone of my posts? Listen mister, if you don't like my posts just pass me by or better yet, ask one of the mods to drop me off this forum.....Guys like you refuse to see anything but the almighty word of Cashman. You have lost your objectivity....Starks- by unrealistic I mean starting a season with 2 absolutely unproven starting pitchers especially when you know one of them is brittle with repeated injuries, when one would have been prudent. That's what I am talking about.There was plenty of time to have brought up Kennedy later in the season if you had another vet starting pitcher at the begining of the year...Cashman has proven for years that he has trouble putting together a pitching staff.Then again, you're not interested in a different point of view so I won't bother wasting your time or mine.

Perhaps you haven't noticed dougj, but I am a mod of this forum, and I am asking you for the last time to dial it down because your insinuations and characterizations of people are unappreciated. "Guys like you" see only what you want to see and refuse to have thoughtful and rational conversation. Perhaps if you opened your eyes, you'd see people are saying more than just what you think they're saying. For instance, I am not a blinded Cashman supporter, and I have criticized recently on this forum, so don't pigeon-hole what you don't know. I am merely saying that in this context, it is silly to make a stink about not signing Bartolo Colon as if he'd be some great answer given his recent history, conditioning, and age.

So given your tone, I would say it is you that are not interested in a different point of you and instead would rather unfairly characterize people just because they disagree with you. So again, I as the mod, am asking you to dial it down. Thank you.

[TonyStarks]

....Starks- by unrealistic I mean starting a season with 2 absolutely unproven starting pitchers especially when you know one of them is brittle with repeated injuries, when one would have been prudent. That's what I am talking about.There was plenty of time to have brought up Kennedy later in the season if you had another vet starting pitcher at the begining of the year...Cashman has proven for years that he has trouble putting together a pitching staff.Then again, you're not interested in a different point of view so I won't bother wasting your time or mine.

I'm not interested in a different POV?!? And you are?
It's not about not interested in a different POV, I'm trying to show you the flip of your argument...and you refuse to even fathom it. Your hellbent.

Cashman is trying to get this team younger. In case you didn't notice guys like Andy Pettitte, Derek Jeter, Jorge Posada, Bobby Abreu, Mariano Rivera are getting up there in age. Now is the best time to make sure you can have th next generation of Yankees coming up. Yes, the Yanks might take some lumps. Yes, they may stumble. Yes, there will be growing pains. Yes, the Yanks might miss the playoffs but so what if it's benefitting in the long run!

So the Yanks miss the playoffs, boo hoo. I don't know how long you've been a Yankee fan but your rhetoric reeks of a fan who probably came aboard riiiiiight about the time the Yanks started this run.

You know Stick Michaels didn't become the GM of the Yanks in '95? You do know that there were some very ugly years under his era? There were many growing pains and bleak days. But in the long run look at what it produced: Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Andy Pettite, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada. And Post Season RSVP for every year since '95, including a few World Series Rings. And that my friend did not happen over night.

Brian Cashman has a vision and I applaud him for it. I applaud him for not going out and handing over the booty required for a Johan Santana or for Danny Haren. His vision is for Hughes, Kennedy, Joba, and Wang to all be a part of a strong 5. We cannot and we should not expect that to happen within a year or even possibly two.