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  • Johnson + Posada ???

    What is Randy Johnson's beef with Posada?

    My father insists it's racial. He cracks a lot of jokes, but he's pretty serious about this one. I mean, why else would we have THREE catchers and the odd man is white? And he gets the start on Johnson's day. I understand he needs rest but come on, use Nieves for crying out loud or just send him down.

    Is there anything about this I'm missing?!
    "It ain't over 'til it's over" - Yogi

  • #2
    Johnson and Posada

    I think the problem is one huge pissing contest. The Unit has a huge ego and a nasty disposition. He wants to be in charge and that's it. I think Posada has been around long enough that he doesn't like to take **** from pitchers and Johnson just doesn't give Jorge enough respect. I don't know if racism has anything to do with it. But there is no reason to carry 3 catchers cuz 2 guys aren't getting along.

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    • #3
      Funny, I've been wondering the same exact thing!

      I have no clue what this is about but I definately felt it was personal with Posada since he always pitches to the backup.
      "After my fourth season I asked for $43,000 and General Manager Ed Barrow told me, 'Young man, do you realize Lou Gehrig, a 16-year-man, is playing for only $44,000?' I said, Mr. Barrow, there is only one answer to that - Mr. Gehrig is terribly underpaid."- Yankees outfielder Joe DiMaggio

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      • #4
        I'm wondering if Greg Maddux could also be saying the same thing, since he supposed had some long-running insistence that Javy Lopez not catch him.

        Folks, has Randy ever uttered any racial phrases? If Damon, Sheffield, A-Rod, Matsui, Giambi and Jeter all help him win games, do you think that Giambi is the only one getting praise for Johnson?

        I've heard that Randy favors catchers who aren't sluggers but focus their entire attention on the pitcher. I'm quite sure he didn't invent the term "personal catcher", but Kelly Stinnett, who'd caught Randy in Arizona, does know him. So long as the results are consistently there, I'm quite happy with what's going on, regardless of whether the way it's done is the convention means or not.

        In the end, Posada is guaranteed a day off ever 5th game, so if it's with one certain pitcher, so be it. Roger Clemens insisted upon Posada, but Randy has his right to his own feelings and thoughts.

        Here's something on this:

        Lefty pitches to own rules & catcher
        * * *

        But the whole day made you wonder again about the care and feeding of Johnson, who is being nurtured with uncommon caution, with fur-lined mitts. Torre has been forced into a defensive posture, pampering Johnson as if he were king of the Bronx and the other Yanks were just Little Units.

        Jorge Posada was feeling yesterday like the Littlest Unit, while Torre earnestly deflected questions about his catching rotation. The manager declared he wasn't necessarily providing Johnson with a permanent companion in Stinnett.

        "There is no issue here," Torre said. "Think what you want."

        It didn't take much thinking, not really. Torre has decided again that Posada is not a compatible date for Johnson, and that the two emotional players make for an overcharged battery.

        Posada isn't happy with the move. He specifically said at the start of spring training that he wanted to catch Johnson. Yesterday, Posada told reporters to go ask the manager about his benching, because he had no problems with Johnson.

        Torre might have rested Posada on Wednesday, plugged him behind the plate yesterday, and then columns like this one would not be taking up valuable space in your local newspaper. Torre isn't worried about Posada's feelings, though. He worries about Johnson. He needs his ace to be comfortable. Johnson was 5-6 with a 4.55 ERA pitching last season with Posada as his catcher, 12-2 with a 3.29 ERA with John Flaherty.

        Yesterday, with Stinnett, Johnson threw five innings, gave up four hits, struck out five. The manager noticed in the fifth already his slider was having some problems. Then came the stiffness/soreness/tightness/nothingness.

        Everybody walks around on egg shells with Johnson - his teammates, the press, the manager. They are all waiting for him to explode or start pitching like he did in 2002. His aura takes up a lot of space in the clubhouse, even greater than his 6-10 frame.

        It's all window dressing in the end. We'll find out about the shoulder, and the fastball, soon enough.
        Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
        Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
        THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
        Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mattingly
          I'm wondering if Greg Maddux could also be saying the same thing, since he supposed had some long-running insistence that Javy Lopez not catch him.

          Folks, has Randy ever uttered any racial phrases? If Damon, Sheffield, A-Rod, Matsui, Giambi and Jeter all help him win games, do you think that Giambi is the only one getting praise for Johnson?

          I've heard that Randy favors catchers who aren't sluggers but focus their entire attention on the pitcher. I'm quite sure he didn't invent the term "personal catcher", but Kelly Stinnett, who'd caught Randy in Arizona, does know him. So long as the results are consistently there, I'm quite happy with what's going on, regardless of whether the way it's done is the convention means or not.

          In the end, Posada is guaranteed a day off ever 5th game, so if it's with one certain pitcher, so be it. Roger Clemens insisted upon Posada, but Randy has his right to his own feelings and thoughts.

          Here's something on this:

          Lefty pitches to own rules & catcher
          I have a feeling Posada won`t keep feeling like "the littlest Unit" when we get Clemens and he insists on Posada
          2009 World Series Champions, The New York Yankees

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Rickey_Henderson
            I have a feeling Posada won`t keep feeling like "the littlest Unit" when we get Clemens and he insists on Posada
            Yeah, I'm quite sure that Roger Clemens, whose son is in the Houston farm system, and whose family is based in that city, will just run out and sign with the Yanks.

            I'm not sure what his travel arrangements are (as in not travelling with the team on days he doesn't pitch), but he's got it good down there. Quick trip to the park, can practically go home for a lunch break, sees his kids growing up, doesn't have to be in the middle of a heated AL East pennant race, as he'd undoubtedly expected to be a huge factor into.

            While he's expected to keep Houston playoff-ready if he signs there--presuming, of course, that he doesn't retire--I'd think that the non-DH league would be much easier for him.
            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
            Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
            THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
            Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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            • #7
              I really don't have any problems with RJ having Stinnet as his catcher. Obviously I'm not Posada so I'm sure he wants to catch a Hall of Fame pitcher. The advantages of RJ pitching to Stinnet is he is supposedly a better pitcher and Posada gets a consistent day off. The only disadvantage is that you don't get Posada's bat unless he DH's if there is a third catcher. The Yankees supposedly have a potent enough lineup that they can do without one less bat. Personally, I don't see any real problems with this situation. Then again I'm not Posada who is the one most affected by this situation.

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              • #8
                They're supposed to get their chance together on Sunday's rubbermatch at home vs Baltimore.

                I'm not too sure about Randy, since the weather's pretty bad today and Randy was very comfortable in the warm confines of Arizona.

                We'll see how well he does, and I can only hope for a Yankee win, regardless of who catches who.
                Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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                • #9
                  I don't know what Johnson's problem with Posada is, if any, but I would bet real money it isn't ethnic in nature.
                  Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mattingly
                    I'm wondering if Greg Maddux could also be saying the same thing, since he supposed had some long-running insistence that Javy Lopez not catch him.
                    The situation with Javy and Maddux was in-fact really no situation at all. Maddux pretty much has to have his own catcher whom he tells his pitching repertoire to. That catcher has to be devoted to it, to be on the same page as Maddux. Maddux is so much of a control freak during baseball games that he sometimes calls the game (patting the glove twice is a cutter etc.).

                    So with Lopez being the everyday catcher, and already dealing with 4 other starters, he lacked the ability to learn Maddux's view of pitching. So Maddux being the perfectionist he is, wants his own guy to pitch too.

                    Plus Bobby Cox loved the idea to give Javy a day off.

                    -So maybe this will shed a little light on your situation.
                    Simply... TAKING BACK THE EAST IN 2007

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                    • #11
                      Thanks, Go Bravos! I've heard similar things about Randy, but not to the extent of calling the game. Each guy has their own method, as everyone is unique. Despite Clemens' insisting upon Posada, Randy seemed to want a catcher whose sole focus was on catching the pitcher and working with him, not offense.

                      Quite a few Yankee fans on another board were upset that Posada was not deemed worthy of catching Randy, which would seem natural. They mentioned his being the starter, his 4 rings, and that it should've been a fit by convention standards. Also mentioned his offensive advantages when he's in the lineup.

                      Still, I'm of the "whatever makes Randy comfortable" type, so long as he's getting good results. Others there said that come October (presuming the Yanks make it, as hoped), we'd need Posada sitting behind the bag anyway, but I've argued that if we allow a few less runs with good pitching, we won't need as much offense, especially with Sheffield, A-Rod, Giambi and Matsui providing the slugging power, and with Damon and Jeter scoring runs.

                      Some said that Randy may be snobbish. Still, Posada seems to have a fiery personality, and he'd once supposedly gotten into a hushed-up lockerroom fight with Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez (circa 2002, before being traded to the Expos), which essentially left El Duque in the doghouse with the Yanks.

                      Anyway, Randy's persona seems to be some quiet country boy type of thing, and perhaps he prefers someone more low-key. Even if Randy were a little selfish and wanted to be the star of the game, if he does well that day, I'd say to let him. Either case, having a day off can't hurt.

                      My issues today are the weather, as I'd mentioned earlier. Randy's having grown up in very hot weather may not make him amenable to NY's cold and damp environment. When he'd lost an ALDS game in 2005, there was a bit of rain that day, and it was cold. Today seems like the same thing, as it was cold and wet here today, as it would be in Central Park (where NYC weather is officially taken), as well as in the Bronx.

                      Not making excuses, but if he does poorly, I wouldn't necessarily blame Posada on this; I'd blame the weather. However, if he does well, then perhaps "Hip-Hip" ... Jorge (which is what we've called him at YS-II when it's his turn to bat) can get his wish, to work well together with the team's ace, which he rightfully feels should be his duty, one that he deserves.

                      I've heard that Randy tries avoiding the subject when it comes to Posada, and Posada saying something about it being Torre's decision. There's something unsaid there that could prove meaningful, but you'd have to be a fly on the wall to get the full story, and the flies on the wall aren't talking.
                      Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                      Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                      THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                      Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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                      • #12
                        With all due respect to Jorge because of what he has meant to the team for the past decade--both as Joltin' Joe Girardi-O's apprentice and as star catcher himself--if I were a pitcher (RJ or otherwise), I would have zero faith in Posada behind the plate at this point.

                        Obviously Posada's upside is his offense, and he has always called a good ballgame, but a catcher who lets as many balls get past him as Posada can't really be confidence inspiring--especially when you have a lot of guys who's bread is buttered with sinking stuff and breaking stuff that drops to the ground.

                        He has always had an inability to block the plate with runners coming home. He has also had the knack for lettign pitches at his eye level pass on his glove side (blind spot)? But lately he doesn't seem to have the ability to keep anything that bounces in the first in front of him (usually he gets tied up trying to backhand the ball instead of blocking it).

                        Then again, shoddy defense will be the downfall of a lot of their losses this year (much like last year). Here's to hoping the offense can always compensate.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Alibi Ike
                          With all due respect to Jorge because of what he has meant to the team for the past decade--both as Joltin' Joe Girardi-O's apprentice and as star catcher himself--if I were a pitcher (RJ or otherwise), I would have zero faith in Posada behind the plate at this point.

                          Obviously Posada's upside is his offense, and he has always called a good ballgame, but a catcher who lets as many balls get past him as Posada can't really be confidence inspiring--especially when you have a lot of guys who's bread is buttered with sinking stuff and breaking stuff that drops to the ground.

                          He has always had an inability to block the plate with runners coming home. He has also had the knack for lettign pitches at his eye level pass on his glove side (blind spot)? But lately he doesn't seem to have the ability to keep anything that bounces in the first in front of him (usually he gets tied up trying to backhand the ball instead of blocking it).

                          Then again, shoddy defense will be the downfall of a lot of their losses this year (much like last year). Here's to hoping the offense can always compensate.
                          Good analysis of Posada. I've never really scrutinized Posada's defense that much, but thinking back on his play, you seem to be right on. He does block the plate poorly and he doesn't block balls as well as he could. Still, as you said, he calls a decent enough game, he's probably above average at throwing out runners, and his bat has been one of the best among catchers for the past 8 years. Plus he's a good clubhouse guy. I'm thinking I'd take the offensive production he provides over his defensive lapses. Then again, I'm not a Yankees a pitcher, so I don't know how they feel about Posada catching. If they feel like they are less effective pitchers when Posada is catching, then that would be a big deal. But I don't know if that's the case, and I don't put too much stock in Johnson's sentiments because he's very picky anyway.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DoubleX
                            If they feel like they are less effective pitchers when Posada is catching, then that would be a big deal. But I don't know if that's the case, and I don't put too much stock in Johnson's sentiments because he's very picky anyway.
                            I think your last point may be why, even if what I wrote is 100% true, isn't actually an issue. The other guys (try to) deal with it.

                            The idea really hit me with Chacon. Some speculate that his breakstuff didn't work well in Colorado, others say that he just didn't have faith in it since even a good breaking ball can wind up halfway across the Rockies. Suddenly last year, he pitches all of his games in or close to Earth's atomsphere and his stuff is a little better. But when his breaking stuff is working but winding up 10 feet behind home plate, he must be thinking to find a way to get the ball up enough so it doesn't hit the dirt--and then you're in trouble.

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                            • #15
                              So is Kelly Stinnett better at defense or not letting balls go by him than Posada? A few years ago, he was nicknamed Jorge "Pass-ada" re his PB count.

                              As to his not blocking the plate, I've heard that it was in his minor league career that someone slammed into him, which accounts for his reluctance to put his body out there and brace for the collission.

                              Some guys put their full body out there, and sometimes Posada just swipes runners, hoping to hit the target as the ump watches.
                              Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                              Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                              THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                              Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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