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  • #16
    Originally posted by ipitch View Post
    It appears that that IS the rule. The umpires just got the call wrong.
    OK, that makes sense, sounds better. I guess none of the umps knew that, how could that be, they discuss the rules before games.

    Comment


    • #17
      http://umpireejections.blogspot.com/

      Rule 1.04 defines the outer limit of The Playing Field as a "fence, stand or other obstruction on fair territory." Rule 2.00 FAIR TERRITORY specifies that fair territory encompasses "the bottom of the playing field fence [extended] perpendicularly upwards."

      Notice from the picture above, that the chain link fence and padding appears to be slightly recessed from the playing field fence (you may have to look towards the left-center field area to see it). In other words, the ~ three foot high chain link fence and its corresponding padding ("an obstruction") is on the out of play side of the fence defined by Rule 1.04. It is not flush with the wall, is not perpendicular to the ground at the point in which the fence defined by Rule 1.04 begins, and therefore, is not part of the playing field. By virtue of all that rules review, the umpires got it right.
      .


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      • #18
        Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
        http://umpireejections.blogspot.com/

        Rule 1.04 defines the outer limit of The Playing Field as a "fence, stand or other obstruction on fair territory." Rule 2.00 FAIR TERRITORY specifies that fair territory encompasses "the bottom of the playing field fence [extended] perpendicularly upwards."

        Notice from the picture above, that the chain link fence and padding appears to be slightly recessed from the playing field fence (you may have to look towards the left-center field area to see it). In other words, the ~ three foot high chain link fence and its corresponding padding ("an obstruction") is on the out of play side of the fence defined by Rule 1.04. It is not flush with the wall, is not perpendicular to the ground at the point in which the fence defined by Rule 1.04 begins, and therefore, is not part of the playing field. By virtue of all that rules review, the umpires got it right.
        I get their point Savoy, they contend that it struck the chain link fence and that is behind the wall, where the ball first made contact.
        Does that mean if the ball strikes only the chain link fence and bounds back on to the field, it would be a home run, looks that way to me.
        That is what confuses some. We are accustomed to what the rule is in any park, a ball that hits the top of a barrier and bounds back on the field is not a home run. But the fact that this chain link fence is behind the wall, it's a home run.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
          http://umpireejections.blogspot.com/

          Rule 1.04 defines the outer limit of The Playing Field as a "fence, stand or other obstruction on fair territory." Rule 2.00 FAIR TERRITORY specifies that fair territory encompasses "the bottom of the playing field fence [extended] perpendicularly upwards."

          Notice from the picture above, that the chain link fence and padding appears to be slightly recessed from the playing field fence (you may have to look towards the left-center field area to see it). In other words, the ~ three foot high chain link fence and its corresponding padding ("an obstruction") is on the out of play side of the fence defined by Rule 1.04. It is not flush with the wall, is not perpendicular to the ground at the point in which the fence defined by Rule 1.04 begins, and therefore, is not part of the playing field. By virtue of all that rules review, the umpires got it right.
          Probably nothing will ever convince you, but MLB has already admitted that it was a blown call.

          MINNEAPOLIS -- Brian Cashman said he spoke to current Major League Baseball executive Joe Torre and the former Yankees manager admitted the umpires made a mistake on the home run call that helped the Royals win on Wednesday night.

          "We talked to MLB today and Joe Torre at Cooperstown (where the owners meetings were held) acknowledged a mistake was made," Cashman said Thursday. "There is nothing we can do but move on. At least it was acknowledged. It is what it is."


          Billy Butler's third-inning home run didn't clear a small second fence in left-center field but was ruled a home run on the field and following a replay look.

          The homer was part of a four-run inning in the Royals' 5-4 win over the Yankees.

          Girardi did not immediately protest the game, leaving the Yankees with no option to rectify the call.

          "Joe could have protested immediately, but I've been around a long time; I don't think baseball would uphold the protest," Cashman said. "I would be shocked if Major League Baseball upheld a managerial protest."

          Torre, executive VP of baseball operations, ironically made a presentation to owners Thursday revealing MLB's plans to upgrade umpiring.

          Replays showed Butler's ball hitting the top of the fence then hitting the chain-link railing about a foot behind it and falling onto the warning track. During the replay viewing, Butler had his helmet on and appeared ready to go to second base.

          What the umpires told Yankees first-base coach Mick Kelleher during the ground rules meeting before Monday night's game and what DeMuth told Girardi in the third inning Wednesday night differed.

          According to Kelleher, he was told a home run had to clear both walls. Girardi said he was instructed the ball only had to clear one wall.

          "I figured he knew the rules," Girardi said of crew chief Dana DeMuth, who was at second base. "The reason I didn't protest is I believed the umpire."

          Sixty minutes after the game, umpire supervisor Steve Palermo had the four umpires on the left-field warning track and held an animated conversation with DeMuth. It was a strong indication DeMuth made a mistake.

          Through the Royals' PR department, the umpires declined comment on the situation.

          "At least it was acknowledged," Cashman said. "Joe Torre did it in Cooperstown I talked to Peter Woodfork (an MLB senior VP).

          "We have to move on. we made our share of mistakes last night. We had our chances to win the game."
          Last edited by ipitch; 08-18-2011, 01:40 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ipitch View Post
            Probably nothing will ever convince you, but MLB has already admitted that it was a blown call.
            Yes, I just saw this. Makes more sense that the ball should have to clear both walls if they are right next to each other, but that's not what the rulebook says. This looks like the pine tar thing to me, where the umpire made the correct ruling based on the rulebook, but the league then stuck it up the umpire's arse and ruled against what the rulebook says.
            .


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            • #21
              Originally posted by ipitch View Post
              Probably nothing will ever convince you, but MLB has already admitted that it was a blown call.

              Ya know IP, he just might be onto something. You know all those big windows in the wall at Mays Field? They have screens that are indented from the perpendicular, soooooo.. hit the screen and.......HOME RUN!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                Yes, I just saw this. Makes more sense that the ball should have to clear both walls if they are right next to each other, but that's not what the rulebook says. This looks like the pine tar thing to me, where the umpire made the correct ruling based on the rulebook, but the league then stuck it up the umpire's arse and ruled against what the rulebook says.
                By the way, the same player (Butler) hit a ball to the same spot earlier this year against the Angels. It was also reviewed and upheld as a HR, based on the rules in the rulebook and the umpires understanding of the ground rule for that park. The fact that Torre is now saying something different about the ground rule does not mean that the call was wrong at the time that it was made.
                .


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                • #23
                  Definitely not an HR. It must clear the top fence. I have seen a zillion balls hit the top fence and carom back and that was the first one ever called an HR.

                  Years ago I saw what has to be the oddest homerun in Kauffman history. Sal Bando hit a ball that when it landed wedged itself between the top of the main fence and the bottom of the top fence. For whatever reason the umps immediately ruled that an HR so it wasn't an ITPHR.
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                    Yes, I just saw this. Makes more sense that the ball should have to clear both walls if they are right next to each other, but that's not what the rulebook says. This looks like the pine tar thing to me, where the umpire made the correct ruling based on the rulebook, but the league then stuck it up the umpire's arse and ruled against what the rulebook says.
                    I would guess that the ground rule supersedes the rulebook, at least in this case. Each ballpark has its own ground rules that may not be covered anywhere in the MLB rulebook. While it says "fair territory encompasses the bottom of the playing field fence [extended] perpendicularly upwards", that may just refer to simple vertical walls, and not the rather unusual wall at Kaufmann.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Here's his HR from June 1. This one appears (to me) to go behind the chain link fence, but I'm anything but sure.
                      https://secure.mlb.com/media/video.j...nt_id=15437971

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by CandlestickBum View Post
                        Ya know IP, he just might be onto something. You know all those big windows in the wall at Mays Field? They have screens that are indented from the perpendicular, soooooo.. hit the screen and.......HOME RUN!
                        Heheh.
                        ...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ipitch View Post
                          Here's his HR from June 1. This one appears (to me) to go behind the chain link fence, but I'm anything but sure.
                          https://secure.mlb.com/media/video.j...nt_id=15437971
                          That one hits behind the chain link somewhere. You can see the ball disappear when it is even with the top of the chain link, so it's gotta be behind it. It musty have just hit a seat on the right angle to have it carom back on the field.
                          .


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ipitch View Post
                            Here's his HR from June 1. This one appears (to me) to go behind the chain link fence, but I'm anything but sure.
                            https://secure.mlb.com/media/video.j...nt_id=15437971
                            I don't see anyway possible a ball could go "beyond" or behind that screen and then fall back on to the playing field, it's impossible. At some point the ball would have to be on the other side (back side) of the screen and then some how come back in front of the screen and the wall and bound on to the playing field, can't happen.
                            The only anwer is, it appears to go beyond the screen.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                              That one hits behind the chain link somewhere. You can see the ball disappear when it is even with the top of the chain link, so it's gotta be behind it. It musty have just hit a seat on the right angle to have it carom back on the field.
                              Take a look at the picture in post #12. My guess is that it hit to the right of the beer cup.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                                I don't see anyway possible a ball could go "beyond" or behind that screen and then fall back on to the playing field, it's impossible. At some point the ball would have to be on the other side (back side) of the screen and then some how come back in front of the screen and the wall and bound on to the playing field, can't happen.
                                The only anwer is, it appears to go beyond the screen.
                                OK ipitch, I understand what your saying now, that the ball looks like it struck something after clearing the chain link fence. In that case it could go over the fence and come back this way.
                                To me that looked like a more legit home run than the one hit against the Yanks.
                                Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 08-18-2011, 04:21 PM.

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