Is Cashman a poor evaluator of pitchers?

[TonyStarks]

I gotta admit, Cashman has been terrible with just about every single pitcher he's traded, traded for or signed. I did some digging after reading about Pineda and came up with this:

• In '98 he traded away Eric Milton who was very serviceable for Chuck Knoblauch.
• He traded for top pitching prospect Ed Yarnall with a few other prospects for Mike Lowell, who went on to be a star.
• In 1999 he signs Hideki Irabu.
• In 2000 he trades for Denny Neagle, who completely bombed once he arrived.
• 2001 trades Damaso Marte for Enrique Wilson.
• Trades for Jay Witasick, who showed he could only pitch in the NL.
• Trades for Mark Wohlers, who at this point is washed up.
• In 2002 trades away Ted Lilly with a few prospects for Jeff Weaver, who seemed like he couldn't get anyone out.
• Trades for Armando Benitez, Jesse Orosco and Dan Miceli within a span of a couple weeks. None does anything worth a lick for the Yanks!
• In 2003 trades for Kevin Brown, who sucks the life outta Yankee stadium each time he was out there.
• 2004 trades for Esteban Loiza. SMH
• Also traded Nick Johnson, Juan Rivera and Randy Choate for Javy Vazquez who develops a fear of AL bats.
• In 2005 trades for a washed up Randy Johnson who wins some games but is clearly not the ace he once was.
• In 2007 trades Tyler Clippard for a decent arm who never got a chance in Albaladejo.

Keep in mind he also signed:

• Jose Contreras, couldn't handle NY.
• Carl Pavano, practically stole $40M from Cashman
• Kei Igawa, smh. The greatest pitcher in Yankees farm system's history.
• Pedro Feliciano, still has yet to suit up after the Mets abused his arm like Torre did to Proctor.
• Kyle Fransworth, 100MPH that goes straight and made awesome souvenirs in Yankee stadium.
• Jarret Wright, Leo Mazzone project that didn't work when Leo wasn't around to sprinkle him with pixie dust.

Either Cashman has terrible luck when it comes to pitchers or he just can't read'em. I'm not sure which is the problem but the scales are surely tipping in one direction. Now this Pineda thing isn't helping Cashman either. Part of me thinks that Pineda said he was sore to to provide some cover for the lack of zip on his fasball, the Yanks just put him on the DL to work on his mechanics.

[dominik]

I would not write off pineda yet although I can understand that you are worried after trading away your best hitting prospect.

If pineda gets his stuff of last year back (and I don't see why he wouldn't at his age) he will strike out a lot of hitters.

[Joltin' Joe]

Either Cashman has terrible luck when it comes to pitchers or he just can't read'em. I'm not sure which is the problem but the scales are surely tipping in one direction. Now this Pineda thing isn't helping Cashman either. Part of me thinks that Pineda said he was sore to to provide some cover for the lack of zip on his fasball, the Yanks just put him on the DL to work on his mechanics.

Cashman has always been a terrible GM IMO. His only weapon was George's deep pockets and long arms. Give him the average MLB team checkbook and he would fall flat on his face. It will be interesting to see how he fares as Hal has much shorter arms than his father.

[Joltin' Joe]

[*]In 1999 he signs Hideki Irabu

It was 1997...anyways I really can't blame Cashman on this one as it was George that pushed for it. Also something happened to Irabu after the 1996 season in Japan. Valentine stated that his fastball was world class. Also in an interview sometimes around 2002-2004, Ichiro was asked which pitcher had the best fastball and he replied (paraphrasing here) "Troy Percival and Irabu when he used to have it".

[tag0519]

Cashman has always been a terrible GM IMO. His only weapon was George's deep pockets and long arms. Give him the average MLB team checkbook and he would fall flat on his face. It will be interesting to see how he fares as Hal has much shorter arms than his father.

I agree and I'm a Yankee fan yet, pitching can be difficult to evaluate. The Rays seem to have it down though

[philliesfiend55]

You're quibbling about Randy Johnson. The idea is to win,no matter how high your earned run average is. I'll take a guy who can hold a lead over someone who has a low E.R.A., great WHIP, but still manages to be a loser or a .500 pitcher. I think Johnson did pretty well with 17 wins in each of his two seasons as a Yankee. They needed every win they could get in 2005 when the Yankees and Red Sox tied for first but the Yankees were awarded the division because of a 10-9 advantage in head-to-head confrontations with Boston. That year with about two or three weeks left in the season Johnson beat the Sox' Curt Schilling in a 1-0 pitching duel classic, which turned out to be the difference-maker and give the Yankees the division title. By the way, Johnson had just turned 42 so he was doing pretty well for a guy his age.

[YankeeRLA1968]

I don't disagree with the ML perceived blunders in some of those trades or signings but in fairness.

George Steinbrenner pushed for many of those deals. Irabu was the Japanese Nolan Ryan. Signing guys past their best days like Kevin Brown and even Randy Johnson was not likely all Cashman.

There are some bad trades on that resume but other factors played in. Milton for Knoblauch seems obsurd but Knobby was an All Star and did help with some offense at the top of the order. I always thought another bad trade to the Twins was trading Ron Davis for Roy Smalley. Davis was the bridge for Gossage before relieving was such of an art. Davis-Gossage combo was just incredible when the Yankees had the lead after 6 innings. But the Yankees needed a shortstop and Smalley was an All Star.

I totally don't have any issue with trading for Javy Vazquez. I thought 2 or 3 years prior the Yankees should go after him. The issue is that many players can't play in NY. I don't know how you gauge or interview for that.

[YankeeRLA1968]

You're quibbling about Randy Johnson. The idea is to win,no matter how high your earned run average is. I'll take a guy who can hold a lead over someone who has a low E.R.A., great WHIP, but still manages to be a loser or a .500 pitcher. I think Johnson did pretty well with 17 wins in each of his two seasons as a Yankee. They needed every win they could get in 2005 when the Yankees and Red Sox tied for first but the Yankees were awarded the division because of a 10-9 adsvantage in head-to-head confrontations with Boston. That year with about two or three weeks left in the season Johnson beat the Sox' Curt Schilling in a 1-0 pitching duel classic, which turned out to be the difference-maker and give the Yankees the division title. By the way, Johnson had just turned 42 so he was doing pretty well for a guy his age.

No one disputes the statement "he was doing pretty well for a guy his age". I think people thought he would come in and win 22-25 games with a 3.00 or below ERA, be dominate.

[TonyStarks]

You're quibbling about Randy Johnson. The idea is to win,no matter how high your earned run average is. I'll take a guy who can hold a lead over someone who has a low E.R.A., great WHIP, but still manages to be a loser or a .500 pitcher. I think Johnson did pretty well with 17 wins in each of his two seasons as a Yankee. They needed every win they could get in 2005 when the Yankees and Red Sox tied for first but the Yankees were awarded the division because of a 10-9 advantage in head-to-head confrontations with Boston. That year with about two or three weeks left in the season Johnson beat the Sox' Curt Schilling in a 1-0 pitching duel classic, which turned out to be the difference-maker and give the Yankees the division title. By the way, Johnson had just turned 42 so he was doing pretty well for a guy his age.

The idea behind the thread was to show Cashman's history of making bad trades or signings of pitchers. Randy wasn't the meat and potatoes of my point so I don't think quibbling is what I was doing here.

Johnson was brought in to be the Ace of the staff and that wasn't exactly what he did here. The Yanks gave up Nick Johnson, Randy Choate and Juan Rivera for Javy. Then a year later they send Javy, Dioner Navarro, Brad Halsey and cash to Arizona for Johnson and that just made the trade much more costlier.

As for your argument about taking a high ERA guy who can hold a lead over a low ERA, great WHIP, can you name someone like that? Because every time I read people argue about this Aaron Sele comes to mind and IMO he was a mediocre pitcher who luckily benefited from great offense when he was on the mound during most of his years after Boston.

Anyway, I just can't think of any pitching trades by Cashman that worked out, maybe Shawn Chacon, Scott Proctor and Aaron Small. The trades that netted these players were all insignificant and they weren't expected to do much, but they did manage to contribute.

[ipitch]

You're quibbling about Randy Johnson. The idea is to win,no matter how high your earned run average is. I'll take a guy who can hold a lead over someone who has a low E.R.A., great WHIP, but still manages to be a loser or a .500 pitcher.

A pitcher with a good winning % and a high ERA can thank his teammates for the great run support.

[NJYankeeFan]

I think it is less his ability to identify than it is the Nyy mentality of win now and win always. To do that you need pitching. Teams know that so they tend not to let the good ones go, at least not in their prime.

So you need to develop some and cashman has worked to turn around a moribund system.

He refused to trade two top young pitchers for santana in decline.

Do we miss Ipk? Yes but he clearly had the least upside of that group and grandy is a pretty good player.

CC has worked out well.

Javy is really a mystery. But the guy had a great first half in stripes before getting hurt and trying to pitch through it.

Bringing Pettite back once worked well.

And lets not give up on Hughes or Judas yet.

[The Monument]

Add Kuroda to the list of bad signings.

[GiambiJuice]

Eric Milton for Chuck Knoblauch was a bad trade???

[KCGHOST]

Interesting that most professional observers give Cashman high marks as a GM. When you live in a "win now" world you have agreed that trading prospects for veterans is a way of life. Young players almost always struggle in there initial seasons. And it is Cashman who is trying to hold the line on trading on not trading prospects. He did trade Montero, but got back Pineda and another live arm. At the time of the trade it was generally considered that the Yanks got way the better of the deal. Evaluating the deal later is second guessing of the lowest order. And it is very possible may return healthy and dominating next year.

[Evangelion]

"Johnson was brought in to be the Ace of the staff and that wasn't exactly what he did here. The Yanks gave up Nick Johnson, Randy Choate and Juan Rivera for Javy. Then a year later they send Javy, Dioner Navarro, Brad Halsey and cash to Arizona for Johnson and that just made the trade much more costlier."

In hindsight, none of the prospect trade amounted to much at the MLB level. N. Johnson would likely be the only player who had success, but even that was limited due to long history of injuries since his departure from New York. Navarro had a good season with Tampa as a starter before he couldn't hold a job. The same applies to Rivera, who had a decent season or two with the Angels. The other are just journeyman relievers who haven't done much at MLB level. The trade didn't burn, like the Lowell trade.