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The Tragedy of Derek Jeter's Defense

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ipitch View Post
    Apparently you missed the "since 2003" at the bottom of the graphic.
    I'll admit this much.


    Ground ball past a diving Jeter. Ground ball past a diving Jeter. Ground ball past a diving Jeter. etc. etc.
    This happens on a daily basis? Or were you looking the other way when he charged the ball to make 6-6-3 play to get the Yankees out of a bases loaded jam?

    If his range to the glove side is the only way that you judge him, then please let me know what a SS does. Apparently, only balls up the middle.

    He keeps making routine plays? I should hope so. A routine play is another term for an easy play.
    If he failed to make those plays, then there would really be a tragedy. This thread title is a joke.

    When a player can be counted upon to boot an easy 6-4-3 or 4-6-3 play, then he's a joke, a tragedy or a travesty. When a player can be counted upon to make those plays, as well as plays to shallow LF, then how is his glove a tragedy?


    He gets to fewer balls due to his lack of range.
    And the current AL SSs who you've seen make those plays are?

    Yeah, Nunez might have been the worst fielding SS I've ever seen.
    Was that what you've seen with your own eyes or what some defensive stats led you to believe?

    Ground ball past a diving Jeter. Ground ball past a diving Jeter. Ground ball past a diving Jeter. etc. etc. Sorry, I don't have 5,000 hours and access to game videos to figure out how many runs Jeter cost the Yankees. As if it could possibly change your opinion anyway.
    So anyone who defends Jeter can't be rationale? As if your mind could be changed anytime soon?

    I asked if you've seen those games. I didn't ask for 5,000 hrs of video games. If you're going to criticize a player, is it asking too much of you to watch some games? If you don't watch the games, then should we all just get in line and regurgitate what others have said to critique Jeter?

    Seriously, how many Jeter posters are on your bedroom wall right now? 2? 4?
    NONE.

    How many anti-Jeter posters are on yours? 10-20? Obviously, you can't understand a great player when you see one.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
      I asked if you've seen those games. I didn't ask for 5,000 hrs of video games. If you're going to criticize a player, is it asking too much of you to watch some games? If you don't watch the games, then should we all just get in line and regurgitate what others have said to critique Jeter?
      I watch about 100 Yankees games per season.

      You said "please name the plays not made by Derek Jeter, and how many runs did that ACTUALLY cost in a game?"
      Sorry, I don't keep stats. I just watch the games. Can you tell me how many runs that Jeter cost the Yankees on defense?

      Obviously, you can't understand a great player when you see one.
      This thread is about his defense. Do you think he's great on defense?
      Last edited by ipitch; 08-10-2014, 10:24 AM.

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      • #18
        Let's stay on topic fellas, this is a debate. No need for personal attacks. Please don't make me get on a soapbox.

        As for the thread, it is what it is. It's the best article I had ever seen written about Jeter's lack of defense, or more importantly his lack of range.

        Does Jeter make routine plays, yes…typically. Although I've watched a few games this season where Jeter has booted the routine play, but again that's not what this thread is about. It's about his lack of range. We already know the lack of range up the middle, it's legendarily bad. And Matty, I have seen a SS make the up the middle play over and over and over again. I've watched Jimmy Rollins, Rey Ordonez, Omar Vizquel, Nomar, A'Rod, Hanley, Tulo, etc, etc, etc make those types of play.

        No one is questioning Jeter's bat. It's arguably been very good in terms of his career. The discussion is mainly about his range and ability to go up the middle and into the hole.



        That said, everyone knows I'm not the biggest Jeter fan…mainly because of his fanboys and how NY Sports Media puts him in Babe Ruth territory but I'm glad he was a Yankee and I'm sure I'll miss his late swinging bat when he's gone.
        "After my fourth season I asked for $43,000 and General Manager Ed Barrow told me, 'Young man, do you realize Lou Gehrig, a 16-year-man, is playing for only $44,000?' I said, Mr. Barrow, there is only one answer to that - Mr. Gehrig is terribly underpaid."- Yankees outfielder Joe DiMaggio

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ipitch View Post
          I watch about 100 Yankees games per season.

          You said "please name the plays not made by Derek Jeter, and how many runs did that ACTUALLY cost in a game?"
          Sorry, I don't keep stats. I just watch the games. Can you tell me how many runs that Jeter cost the Yankees on defense?
          I wasn't asking for stats. I wasn't asking for any calculations about what someone THOUGHT would have cost games. How many runs (on average) would you say that Jeter's defense cost the Yankees some runs or some games?

          This thread is about his defense. Do you think he's great on defense?
          I never claimed that Jeter was a defensive wizard. I've watched Ozzie Smith long before I ever heard of Derek Jeter. I've also watched each of Garciaparra, Tejada and A-Rod, who were in the same era and age range as he was.

          I still don't understand two things:

          How is his defense a "tragedy", and why is he being compared to a journeyman? Why couldn't he have been compared to another starting SS? Instead, he's being compared to Brendan Ryan, who hasn't hit .250 since 2009.

          http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ryanbr01.shtml

          If the Yankees wanted an all-glove guy, they could've looked crosstown and gotten either Rey Ordoñez, or had a legitimate starter in Jose Reyes, who used to start at SS for the Mets, and now does so for the Blue Jays, who are also in the AL East.

          As many corner outfielders as there are in baseball who have low defensive skills, I wonder why Jeter gets so much attention. Look at our own beloved Bernie Williams, who played CF for about 16 seasons. When he lost his speed (he'd been a high school track star in Puerto Rico), he couldn't catch up to the fly balls anymore.
          Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
          Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
          THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
          Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
            When the combination of runs saved and runs created is less than the other guy. It is pretty simple. I don't care enough about Jeter or Ryan to know how they compare as I was speaking in generalities to the people who are acting as if a great glove, bad offense guy can't be as good as a terrible glove, slightly below average at this point in his career offensive guy.

            As a principal, that isn't true. I couldn't care less who the Yankees start or know who it should be; It doesn't affect the team I care about.

            As far as Jeter's glove...there are 50 threads on it with the same stuff rehashed over and over and over again. I am pretty burnt-out ever talking about it again.
            How do you even calculate the number of runs saved and the number of runs created? What is the calculation for each? I presume that it's a SABR stat, so please provide the formula.

            As for the value of a great glove/poor bat vs poor glove/great bat, I believe that there are many factors involved beyond the obvious. If you could seriously tell me that you'd have taken Brendan Ryan "as is" over Derek Jeter, then we'd simply disagree. Ryan has never played 150 games, so I really don't consider him a starting SS. Had this thread been about players who were legitimate starting shorts, such as Vizquel, Garciaparra, Rodriguez, Tejada, then I believe the point would've been better made.

            If you only want a slick glove and ignore offense, then you could've put Rey Ordoñez on your team, and see how many games you'd actually win that way in the end. If winning games isn't the desired result, then I'll accept that as it is. Do you REALLY think the Mets would've preferred playing Rey Ordoñez over Derek Jeter every day?
            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
              I wasn't asking for stats. I wasn't asking for any calculations about what someone THOUGHT would have cost games. How many runs (on average) would you say that Jeter's defense cost the Yankees some runs or some games?
              Well, if the average SS allows 0 extra runs to score, then perhaps Jeter allows 15 extra runs to score in a season. That would be my guess.

              How is his defense a "tragedy", and why is he being compared to a journeyman? Why couldn't he have been compared to another starting SS? Instead, he's being compared to Brendan Ryan, who hasn't hit .250 since 2009.
              The article was about defense. Brendan Ryan is a great defensive SS - perhaps the best. Ryan was compared to Jeter to show how he makes more plays (due to his range) than Jeter.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
                If you only want a slick glove and ignore offense, then you could've put Rey Ordoñez on your team, and see how many games you'd actually win that way in the end. If winning games isn't the desired result, then I'll accept that as it is. Do you REALLY think the Mets would've preferred playing Rey Ordoñez over Derek Jeter every day?
                Why would they want Ordonez or Reyes? They had Jeter, one of the finest hitting SS of his generation (if not the best). You have to understand, hitting and defense are two entirely separate entities. If everything was according to your logic, guys like Adam Dunn wouldn't have a job. There is absolutely no need to detract guys like Brendan Ryan because they are "journeymen", he is a fine shortstop, and eons better than Jeter (defensively, of course). I know you've been a Yankees fan for a while, and Jeter was accepted by the mainstream as a good defender due to his bat, but this "Gold Glove Logic" doesn't really apply to modern-day baseball anymore. I know it's heartbreaking, but you've gotta face the facts... and the facts say that Jeter was never much of a fielder. He's a damn fine player, though.

                Sorry for chiming in I just had to get my 2 cents worth.
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
                  How do you even calculate the number of runs saved and the number of runs created? What is the calculation for each? I presume that it's a SABR stat, so please provide the formula.

                  As for the value of a great glove/poor bat vs poor glove/great bat, I believe that there are many factors involved beyond the obvious. If you could seriously tell me that you'd have taken Brendan Ryan "as is" over Derek Jeter, then we'd simply disagree. Ryan has never played 150 games, so I really don't consider him a starting SS. Had this thread been about players who were legitimate starting shorts, such as Vizquel, Garciaparra, Rodriguez, Tejada, then I believe the point would've been better made.

                  If you only want a slick glove and ignore offense, then you could've put Rey Ordoñez on your team, and see how many games you'd actually win that way in the end. If winning games isn't the desired result, then I'll accept that as it is. Do you REALLY think the Mets would've preferred playing Rey Ordoñez over Derek Jeter every day?
                  Google any of the metics. Glossaries are everyhwere.

                  When did i say i wanted all glove, no stick over no glove, all stick. That isn't even close to what I said. I said that we need to look at total run contrinution and not compartmentalizing it and going for one vs. another. Sometimes that is done with offense leading the way, but if the defense is bad enough, a glove guy can move ahead if the defensive gap is big enough.
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Francoeurstein View Post
                    Why would they want Ordonez or Reyes? They had Jeter, one of the finest hitting SS of his generation (if not the best). You have to understand, hitting and defense are two entirely separate entities. If everything was according to your logic, guys like Adam Dunn wouldn't have a job. There is absolutely no need to detract guys like Brendan Ryan because they are "journeymen", he is a fine shortstop, and eons better than Jeter (defensively, of course). I know you've been a Yankees fan for a while, and Jeter was accepted by the mainstream as a good defender due to his bat, but this "Gold Glove Logic" doesn't really apply to modern-day baseball anymore. I know it's heartbreaking, but you've gotta face the facts... and the facts say that Jeter was never much of a fielder. He's a damn fine player, though.

                    Sorry for chiming in I just had to get my 2 cents worth.
                    Well, since Jeter's defense is so horrendous that he can barely get a ball into his glove, then why WOULDN'T they want Ordonez or Reyes? After all, this is about Jeter's horrendous defense, correct? If defense is the thread's topic, then why wouldn't an all-glove guy be more valuable than Jeter? Either offense does play a part or it doesn't.

                    If you would seriously take Rey Ordonez or Brendan Ryan over Derek Jeter for each of their entire careers, then I'd simply beg to differ.

                    As far as the so-called "Gold-Glove logic", I don't remember having stated that any of Jeter's (or anyone else's) GG's had anything to do with his capabilities, so I have no idea what you mean by that, nor why that would apply in the past but not currently.

                    I've also stated that there are or have been TONS of players whose defense have been lacking. Why does Derek Jeter's defense get singled out? I've previously made this point.

                    Rey Ordonez is basically a bench player who the Mets had to keep due to their inability to find a replacement who could hit more than 30 home runs over a 10-year span. When Rey decided to criticize the fans, the team proved Ordonez' expendability and shipped him to Tampa Bay. Later on, Reyes was called up. That's why I believe that all-glove and no-bat (which is exactly what Ordonez was) doesn't help a team out too much.

                    If you want to know my logic, just ask. Compared to Jeter, I consider Brendan Ryan to be a journeyman. If you think that his glove alone makes him a SS, then I would ask you if you would ever give him a 10-year deal worth >$100M. A player has to have value, regardless of where he plays. Would you give Brendan Ryan a $100M deal over 10 years? Who would give a 10-year deal to someone who can't even hit .250? Like I said, a player has to have VALUE, regardless of whether it's defense, offense, baserunning or anything else.

                    Adam Dunn and others are worthy of playing. However, if you're going to make a comparison between Jeter and someone else, please at least use a DECENT comparison. That's why I mentioned Tejada, Garciaparra and Rodriguez (in case anyone was actually reading what I wrote, rather than wondering how dare someone defend Jeter). You mention those individuals, then I would at least consider the comparison to be valid, since those are legitimate all-star players (and the AL SS was definitely the most crowded place during All-Star games when those 4 were chosen).

                    If you had used the Seattle or Texas versions of Alex Rodriguez (and obviously, the PED allegations would be excluded from the argument), then you would have a very legitimate AL defender at the same position, who was better than Jeter both defensively and offensively. Instead, I hear of someone who won't be considered a top star at a position where there were several big stars.
                    Last edited by Mattingly; 08-13-2014, 11:23 PM.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ipitch View Post
                      Well, if the average SS allows 0 extra runs to score, then perhaps Jeter allows 15 extra runs to score in a season. That would be my guess.
                      If you're referring to some stat-based game, the 15 extra runs doesn't mean much to me. A lousy bullpen can allow far more than 15 extra runs over 1-2 WEEKS, much less a month. Over the course of 162 games (or 150 games from a starting position player), how many extra runs is 15? That's 1 extra run every 10 games, or about 2.5 extra runs per month over a 6-month baseball season. Truly horrendous indeed.

                      When the Yanks have 11-9 games sometimes, you're going to say that Jeter allowed less than 1 extra run per week? If the Yanks win 3-2 or lose 2-1, that extra run allowed is due to a poor-fielding SS?

                      In the real world, if a ball is booted (regardless of by whom), the floodgates can quickly open, since a bases-loaded, 1- or 2-out scenario can quickly lead to all 3 runs scoring if that DP isn't made (if 1 out). Therefore, I believe that a truly horrendous SS would allow a LOT more than 15 extra runs per season, especially if those plays which aren't made properly lead to extra opposing runs.

                      The article was about defense. Brendan Ryan is a great defensive SS - perhaps the best. Ryan was compared to Jeter to show how he makes more plays (due to his range) than Jeter.
                      Understood. I just don't think much of Ryan as a player. He reminds me of an upgrade over Rey Ordonez.

                      Baseball doesn't have a designated fielder, so I think that a starting position player has to do a lot more than field. As many defensive replacements at positions other than SS that the Yanks have used the past few years, I'd say that there are LOTS of guys who have weak gloves and are more DH types. Jason Giambi was an example of that.
                      Last edited by Mattingly; 08-13-2014, 11:42 PM.
                      Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                      Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                      THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                      Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post
                        Google any of the metics. Glossaries are everyhwere.

                        When did i say i wanted all glove, no stick over no glove, all stick. That isn't even close to what I said. I said that we need to look at total run contrinution and not compartmentalizing it and going for one vs. another. Sometimes that is done with offense leading the way, but if the defense is bad enough, a glove guy can move ahead if the defensive gap is big enough.
                        I'm not going through the entire list of offensive and defensive stats. If you are saying that there is a point where the defensive contribution outpaces the offensive contribution, then how do you decide when that point has been reached? Do you decide based upon what you see? Stats? What is your deciding factor and/or criteria?
                        Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                        Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                        THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                        Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
                          I'm not going through the entire list of offensive and defensive stats. If you are saying that there is a point where the defensive contribution outpaces the offensive contribution, then how do you decide when that point has been reached? Do you decide based upon what you see? Stats? What is your deciding factor and/or criteria?
                          By adding runs created and runs saved (based on a combination) of metrics and comparing.

                          Of course if the two players end up close, I would pick the guy with offense since the defensive stats are a little less reliable. But if it isn't close...
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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TonyStarks View Post
                            Just came across this article about Jeter's glove and it is the best written piece with evidence (and plenty of GIFs and FILM) to show even the most ardent Jeter fan, the captain's glove deficiency.

                            If you have time take a look, it is intense. It's a very long piece.

                            http://grantland.com/features/the-tr...jeter-defense/

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                            The TRAGEDY of Derek Jeter's defense? Give me a break!
                            I'll file this thread in the "Making Mountains Out Of Molehills" category. I'm not a Yankees fan (quite the opposite, really) but if the Yankees have thought Jeter's defense was adequate enough to be their regular shortstop for the last 19 years then I really don't see what all the fuss is about.

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                            • #29
                              That it is widely misunderstood. Also, relax; "tragedy" is clearly used tongue-in-cheek here, and it is a funnier and better thread title for it.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
                                I've also stated that there are or have been TONS of players whose defense have been lacking. Why does Derek Jeter's defense get singled out? I've previously made this point.
                                Jeter is obviously a very popular player and the average baseball fan probably believes he's a very good fielder. So, I think an article that "shockingly" points out his defense weaknesses makes for a good article.

                                Would anyone want to read an article about the poor defense of some no-name player?

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