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The Tragedy of Derek Jeter's Defense

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  • #46
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Omar Vizcaino? Who's that?
    I'm still trying to figure out who Brendan Ryan and Adam Everett are. Other than a bunch of unaccomplished, part-time nobodies who've never done anything of significance re baseball that is.
    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
    Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
    THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
    Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
      So I'm supposed to pretend to see what Bill James did when he had nothing better to do than single out Derek Jeter for critique, and get on some imaginary bandwagon as to why Jeter was somehow the most butterfingered defender at SS who's ever played the game? Someone whose defensive skills are so lacking that he doesn't even routinely let balls drop by him, and makes play after play after play? Is that the myth which I'm supposed to believe? Because Bill James "sees" it (or WANTS to see it), that I'm supposed to join his fictitious, imaginary bandwagon? No thanks.

      Please show me some facts and stats, and from there I'll form my own conclusion. Every single time that I ask for facts and stats, I get conclusions instead. Does anyone here have any facts to offer? I'm not a sheep, so please let me think for myself.


      You folks are comparing Brendan Ryan, who not once in his career, has played 150 games at SS to a person whose defensive stats EASILY take apart Brendan Ryan's skills, due to lack of games played. Does the term "small sample size" mean anything to you? Obviously not.

      PO: 922 vs 3810
      A: 2040 vs 6578
      E: 68 vs 253
      EP: 459 vs 1404
      Ch: 3030 vs 10641

      Brendan Ryan: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...01-field.shtml

      The so-called worst shortstop in the history of the Major Leagues: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...01-field.shtml

      Please note that many of these stats of the part-time defensive wizard were at 2B and 3B, so the total number of plays at SS becomes even thinner. As you know, Derek Jeter has only played SS & DH for his career.

      Please explain how "terrible" and "horrible" that Derek Jeter is defensively if those are his stats vs his part-time defensive wizard? I don't get it. Please explain.


      That's exactly what I'd expect in this thread: rhetoric. That's not an answer, that's rhetoric. Do you have any stats or metrics that Bill James has told the Jeter haters to accept which prove that Derek Jeter cost the Yankees any games in the WS?

      WON:
      1996
      1998
      1999
      2000
      2009

      LOST:
      2001
      2003

      If you have the facts on Jeter's defensive ineptitude in those WS, then please do share. If you don't (which wouldn't surprise me), then I'll accept that you simply don't.


      Yeah, just like "past a diving Derek Jeter" ... I'm quite sure that nobody in the history of baseball has ever hit a single up the middle past a SS not named Derek Jeter. Right?


      I'm still waiting for someone to say how many games this has cost the Yankees. I need a number. A solid number, not one that's "miraculously" increased from 15 to 50, then perhaps to 100 just to save face. How many runs and/or games has this supposedly "terrible" SS's defense cost the Yankees? Regularly season and postseason. No rhetoric. I want facts that are verifiable.

      If you make a statement, then I fully expect you to support it.


      Your little PowerPoint slides don't make an argument. Now why don't you try showing me the exact same stats for the same shortstops that you've used--Ryan and Everett--during their last 4 years, and all the other starting shortstops in the AL East. I've asked for comparisons to other starting shortstops in the AL East. I've gotten no response (as expected). Instead, I get silly PowerPoint slides. Of course, replying to this would require research on your part, rather than silly rhetoric, so let's see what you're all about.

      Oh, and feel free to say "past a diving Derek Jeter" if rhetoric is your pleasure, as are silly PowerPoint slides.
      The "silly PowerPoint slide" is an ESPN graphic. Send your hate mail that way.

      I just clicked on your profile and saw that your profile picture is Jeter. Surprise surprise, a huge Jeter fan that can't possibly believe that Jeter isn't very good at something.

      You keep asking the same questions over and over, so I don't think I should make you look bad once again. Your opinion will never change anyway.

      (Brendan Ryan fields this grounder without even diving)
      Attached Files
      Last edited by ipitch; 09-07-2014, 08:47 AM.

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      • #48
        Mattingly, Derek Jeter is a below average fielder.

        Accept it.
        Rest in Peace Jose Fernandez (1992-2016)

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Francoeurstein View Post
          Mattingly, Derek Jeter is a below average fielder.

          Accept it.
          "Below average" is a colossal understatement. He is the all-time major league "leader" in negative fielding runs.

          And the all-time "leader" in negative dWAR for shortstops.
          My top 10 players:

          1. Babe Ruth
          2. Barry Bonds
          3. Ty Cobb
          4. Ted Williams
          5. Willie Mays
          6. Alex Rodriguez
          7. Hank Aaron
          8. Honus Wagner
          9. Lou Gehrig
          10. Mickey Mantle

          Comment


          • #50
            photo 1.PNGphoto 2.PNG


            Ouch.
            "After my fourth season I asked for $43,000 and General Manager Ed Barrow told me, 'Young man, do you realize Lou Gehrig, a 16-year-man, is playing for only $44,000?' I said, Mr. Barrow, there is only one answer to that - Mr. Gehrig is terribly underpaid."- Yankees outfielder Joe DiMaggio

            Comment


            • #51
              In picking my All-Time Yankee team I'm still going with Rizzuto,partly because of defense.
              Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen,and welcome to Yankee Stadium. Here are the lineups for todays game...

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by ipitch View Post
                The "silly PowerPoint slide" is an ESPN graphic. Send your hate mail that way.

                I just clicked on your profile and saw that your profile picture is Jeter. Surprise surprise, a huge Jeter fan that can't possibly believe that Jeter isn't very good at something.

                You keep asking the same questions over and over, so I don't think I should make you look bad once again. Your opinion will never change anyway.

                (Brendan Ryan fields this grounder without even diving)
                If you're not going to answer my questions, then I'll only presume that you're not able to. I've asked time and time again, including for World Series defense, how many runs that Derek Jeter allowed. Not a single one of you has so far answered that specific question.

                I don't need to send any hate mail to ESPN. In fact, here's a useful espn.com article on Brendan Ryan:

                http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/yan...-double-switch

                How about that? Brendan Ryan proves his full worth: as Derek Jeter's defensive replacement in a NL park for the late-inning double-switch.

                Why don't you try answering questions sometime? Presuming, of course, that you know how to do that. Hint: this is a DISCUSSION BOARD. In a discussion board, we ask and answer questions. We don't sit there pretending not to hear the questions asked of us.

                My profile pic? That's your excuse for not answering a question? My av says baseball, as does my sign line. I've got 20,000 posts here, and your excuse for not answering questions is my profile pic? I am a Yankee fan and Derek Jeter is a Yankee. If that's your excuse for not bothering to answer a question that you've proven a serious inability to answer, then so be it.

                As far as my opinion not budging, pot to kettle. When has your opinion changed one bit on Derek Jeter?

                As far as fielding grounders, I've already mentioned some serious elite fielders (who actually played SS for many years on a full-time basis):

                Ozzy Smith
                Alex Rodriguez

                Brendan Ryan is nothing more than a part-time backup shortstop (153 games total over the past 3 seasons) who does nothing in the 2013-14 Yankee lineup than warm the bench. Had he played >140 games per year and learned to hit his weight, he may have actually been worthy of consideration as a real shortstop. Only Bill James and his sheep could possibly consider him worthy of mention. When baseball allows a designated fielder position, he would be finally welcome as a starting shortstop (one who's actually useful as a baseball player).

                Now why don't you try answering some questions for once? I have no idea how you can say that I'd never change my mind if you have given no effort whatsoever to even attempt doing so.
                Last edited by Mattingly; 10-11-2014, 10:31 PM.
                Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by The Monument View Post
                  In picking my All-Time Yankee team I'm still going with Rizzuto,partly because of defense.
                  I happen to adore Scooter, and loved how he was so good at turning the DPs. He had a wonderful attitude, was a beloved radio announcer (along with Bill White), and made me very proud to have been a Yankee fan.

                  If defense were the only criteria, then you would win. However, a shortstop happens to be something that the clueless here (including the thread starter) don't get:

                  He is also a BASEBALL player. He has to hit, he has to run, and defense is a lot more than left-to-right motions.

                  Once you factor in Derek Jeter's bat, his many All-Star game appearances and World Series wins, if it came down to the vote on SS, do you think that you'd really win this one?

                  I'll put it this way to the people here: Scooter was beloved, and his HoF speech was one for the ages. However, he got there by the Veteran's Committee. Does anyone here think that Derek Jeter will fail to be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer?

                  Derek Jeter is a complete ballplayer, one who played 150 games for about as many seasons as Brendan the nobody played in his entire career. He hit, he fielded, he ran the basepaths well, he did quite a few things. He wasn't just some defensive specialist/bench player who couldn't use a bat to save his life. That would be Brendan Ryan's job.
                  Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                  Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                  THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                  Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by TonyStarks View Post
                    [ATTACH]142478[/ATTACH][ATTACH]142479[/ATTACH]


                    Ouch.
                    I guess that the word "ouch" would be used for part-time baseball players who never received any accolades, were never considered amongst the best, have no All-Star appearances (not even as a backup/reserve, which is his only skills), can't win a World Series, and did absolutely nothing in their MLB "career" (if that's what his could be called).

                    Let me know if Brendan Ryan's defense alone is good enough to warrant him getting a starting position job, especially for a team that considers him to be a key piece of their winning efforts. I'd love to see the link to that one. Of course, if no such article exists, then the "ouch" is really wasted. Awwwwwwwwwwwww.
                    Last edited by Mattingly; 10-11-2014, 10:26 PM.
                    Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                    Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                    THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                    Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
                      I don't need to send any hate mail to ESPN. In fact, here's a useful espn.com article on Brendan Ryan:

                      http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/yan...-double-switch

                      How about that? Brendan Ryan proves his full worth: as Derek Jeter's defensive replacement in a NL park for the late-inning double-switch.
                      Why do you continue to argue about things that no disagrees with? Everyone already knows that Ryan can't hit. You do realize that playing time depends on how good a player is on offense and defense, right? You seem to think that Jeter is better on defense than Ryan because he got more playing time.

                      Do you disagree with any of these?:
                      offense: Jeter > Ryan
                      defense: Ryan > Jeter
                      overall: Jeter > Ryan

                      From that article:
                      "Ryan is the superior defensive player."

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by The Monument View Post
                        In picking my All-Time Yankee team I'm still going with Rizzuto,partly because of defense.
                        I'd ignore a few of Derek's defensive lapses due to the offense and leadership he provides. The difference between a .270 hitter with no power and 1600 hits (okay, maybe he reaches 2,000 hits without WWII military service) and a .310 hitter with power (over 250 home runs) , speed (over 350 stolen bases) and nearly 3,500 hits is immense! I'd have to go with Derek over Phil.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          jeter was never a good fielder and only got worse but he was still able to play the position adequately for many years. he probably should have moved off the position earlier but if you are absolutely terrible you are not playing a position for 15+ years, especially at SS. yes jeter was probably one of the worst SSs to ever play 10+ years at a position but this is because you already have to be quite solid to play that long there. people act like the yankees could have just as well played jason giambi or david ortiz at SS. the margin between bad and good at SS is only a few percent. if you are not at least adequate you are not staying there no matter what your name is (jeters last 2 seasons probably excluded).

                          jeter was of course well below average in the field but he was good enough to stay there and to compile a HOF career. jeter was not perfect of course. if he was a career fielder like ryan he would be a 100 WAR player and probably the second or third best SS ever, but he wasn't. still he was a top10 SS ever (probably even top5). he should have retired a year or two earlier but still he was the greatest SS the yankees ever had.

                          regarding the "he should have allowed Arod to play SS" I think that is totally stupid. jeter was an iconic figure and probably did not want to move to third but he was not the manager. a player can speak out preferences but when a HOF manager like joe torre does not have the power to move jeter to third it is not jeters fault. baseball players are competitive and they don't like to give up their position. expecting a HOF SS like jeter to go to the manager and say "please move me to third because Arod is better" is not going to happen.
                          I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
                            I guess that the word "ouch" would be used for part-time baseball players who never received any accolades, were never considered amongst the best, have no All-Star appearances (not even as a backup/reserve, which is his only skills), can't win a World Series, and did absolutely nothing in their MLB "career" (if that's what his could be called).

                            Let me know if Brendan Ryan's defense alone is good enough to warrant him getting a starting position job, especially for a team that considers him to be a key piece of their winning efforts. I'd love to see the link to that one. Of course, if no such article exists, then the "ouch" is really wasted. Awwwwwwwwwwwww.
                            Mattingly, you're arguing with yourself here.

                            You're arguing over the wrong thing. No one here is saying Ryan is a better player than Jeter. Ryan was just being used as a metric to show you Jeter's deficiency on defense. Anyone who argues otherwise is being foolish.

                            My friend, look past the trees....
                            "After my fourth season I asked for $43,000 and General Manager Ed Barrow told me, 'Young man, do you realize Lou Gehrig, a 16-year-man, is playing for only $44,000?' I said, Mr. Barrow, there is only one answer to that - Mr. Gehrig is terribly underpaid."- Yankees outfielder Joe DiMaggio

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by ipitch View Post
                              Why do you continue to argue about things that no disagrees with? Everyone already knows that Ryan can't hit. You do realize that playing time depends on how good a player is on offense and defense, right? You seem to think that Jeter is better on defense than Ryan because he got more playing time.

                              Do you disagree with any of these?:
                              offense: Jeter > Ryan
                              defense: Ryan > Jeter
                              overall: Jeter > Ryan

                              From that article:
                              "Ryan is the superior defensive player."
                              Did you read the ESPN article that I linked? Please read it. It specifically states that Brendan Ryan is Derek Jeter's defensive superior. Have you read that part? If not, then why are people asking me to read articles they've linked?

                              Playing time isn't just offense and defense. Playing time is also due to the person(s) that they're relieving, such as day games after night games. If a multi-position bench player, then they have an even greater chance of games being played.

                              Brendan Ryan has played very few games over the course of his time in baseball. Playing 17 games in 2013 when Derek Jeter turned 39 that June seems to be irrelevant to one's offense. Paul O'Neill retired at age 38 in 2001, so I'd think that a 39-y.o. Derek Jeter, who is said here to be such a defensive liability, that it's almost beyond comprehension, would at least need defensive replacement in the 8th or at least 9th innings for close games. Yet Brendan Ryan (age 31) only played 17 games last season for the Yanks.

                              Now then, when shall someone here ever tell me how many runs that Derek Jeter's defense has cost the Yanks? I've asked and asked here, but have been ignored many times. I've asked about this for both during the regular season, and I've asked for the playoffs as well. Can anyone here provide a reasonable number, then support the reasons why they arrived at that number?

                              I'd also like to ask about Derek Jeter's stats. If he is indeed by far and without question the very worst fielder who's ever played the game, as has been strongly implied in this thread, then how did he get the following defensive stats?

                              Putouts: 3,820
                              Assists: 6,605
                              Double Plays: 1,408
                              Fielding %: .976

                              http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...eterde01.shtml
                              Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                              Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                              THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                              Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by TonyStarks View Post
                                Mattingly, you're arguing with yourself here.

                                You're arguing over the wrong thing. No one here is saying Ryan is a better player than Jeter. Ryan was just being used as a metric to show you Jeter's deficiency on defense. Anyone who argues otherwise is being foolish.

                                My friend, look past the trees....
                                I came into this thread seeing references to Derek Jeter being compared to Ringo Starr. Yet the only person being criticized was the only person who dared to defend Derek Jeter ... in a Yankee forum thread.

                                I believe that it's Brendan Ryan who deserves the Ringo Starr comparisons, far moreso than Derek Jeter. That Derek Jeter is a starting shortstop and Brendan Ryan is nothing more than a late inning backup should demonstrate that. Perhaps you should look at the entire forest and see where your allegiances truly are.

                                Brendan Ryan, to me, is absolutely useless as a baseball player, unless baseball somehow invents a part-time designated fielder position. In fact, it's been Stephen Drew who's the all-glove, no-hit shortstop who's been mentioned that could possibly replace Derek Jeter in 2015 if Brian Cashman can't find a suitable replacement. That is, a suitable replacement who could actually play 150+ games without any silly excuses whatsoever. If you're going to sing someone's praises so long and often, then perhaps he'd better start playing the game of baseball, which 32-y.o. Brendan Ryan doesn't do that often these days.

                                Therefore, Brendan Ryan's total lack of usefulness has been further weakened by being overlooked at the very category that is his only strength: shortstop defense.

                                I have no problem defending Derek Jeter, whom I consider not only a great Yankee, but has the rare quality as someone that kids can actually look up to. Very few male athletes can that be said about these days. Derek Jeter may not be an all-time great at his position like Michael Jordan was, or like "Tiger" Woods was in golf. However, Jeter knows how to manage his public image like Michael Jordan, unlike "Tiger" Woods' sloppy mess.
                                Last edited by Mattingly; 11-01-2014, 04:28 PM.
                                Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                                Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                                THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                                Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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