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The Tragedy of Derek Jeter's Defense

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  • #61
    Heres why I pick Jeter for my All-Time Yankee team. Not because he was a better overall player than Jeter--he wasn't. Jeter's numbers speak for themselves and he's received plenty of accolades during his career. But here are a few gems about Rizzuto--Joe McCarthy-"For a little fellow to beat a big fellow he has to be terrific, he has to have everything,and Rizzuto's got it." Tommy Henrich-"We have nothing to worry about as long as Rizzuto remains healthy. He's the team's spark plug." Ted Williams-"If we had that little squirt we'd have won all those pennants."I would expect high praise from his manager and teammate, but from Ted Williams, the greatest hitter of all time, that is some high praise! Heres some more from Mark Gallagher, author of The Yankee Encyclopedia--"He was a complete ballplayer, a fine hitter, a great defensive player and he did all the things characteristic of a smart, heads-up player. He was durable, had good speed and may have been the best base runner of his era. He was one of the game's greatest bunters." Some of those words could apply to Jeter as well. I'll concede that Jeter had the better career but I'll still take Phil at SS, leading off.
    Last edited by The Monument; 11-02-2014, 05:30 PM. Reason: because I effed up
    Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen,and welcome to Yankee Stadium. Here are the lineups for todays game...

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
      Now then, when shall someone here ever tell me how many runs that Derek Jeter's defense has cost the Yanks? I've asked and asked here, but have been ignored many times. I've asked about this for both during the regular season, and I've asked for the playoffs as well. Can anyone here provide a reasonable number, then support the reasons why they arrived at that number?
      I answered that question in post #21, and the ESPN graphic says 142 since 2003.

      Why don't you tell us how many runs you think he cost the Yankees on defense? And, tell us how you arrived at that number.

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      • #63
        WAR per 162 games:

        Rizzuto: 3.96
        Jeter: 4.23

        And Jeter played in over 1,000 more games than Rizzuto.
        My top 10 players:

        1. Babe Ruth
        2. Barry Bonds
        3. Ty Cobb
        4. Ted Williams
        5. Willie Mays
        6. Alex Rodriguez
        7. Hank Aaron
        8. Honus Wagner
        9. Lou Gehrig
        10. Mickey Mantle

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        • #64
          Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
          WAR per 162 games:

          Rizzuto: 3.96
          Jeter: 4.23

          And Jeter played in over 1,000 more games than Rizzuto.

          Did Jetes ever have a moment like this on the field???
          rizzutofan.png
          Rizzuto cracks up as a fan slides into 2nd, the ump is about to call him out...even the policeman in pursuit is laughing!
          "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

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          • #65
            Originally posted by ipitch View Post
            Well, if the average SS allows 0 extra runs to score, then perhaps Jeter allows 15 extra runs to score in a season. That would be my guess.



            The article was about defense. Brendan Ryan is a great defensive SS - perhaps the best. Ryan was compared to Jeter to show how he makes more plays (due to his range) than Jeter.
            ipitch, this is the post #21 which you referenced in your last reply to me. You made a GUESS that Jeter cost the Yanks 15 runs a game. A WILD GUESS. Is that your answer?

            How did you arrive at that answer? Please be specific.

            You later replied, when I questioned that number of 15 games as follows:
            Originally posted by ipitch View Post
            Maybe my guess of 15 is way too low. Maybe it's 50.

            ***
            (emphasis added)

            So the number of runs that Jeter costs goes from 15 to 50 w/o any explanation whatsoever? Again, how many runs did Jeter cost the Yankees? Please explain how you arrived at that number.

            So a player who's done nothing his whole life beyond warming the bench is better defensively at shortstop than anyone who's ever lived? Better than Ozzie Smith, better than "Bud" Harrelson, better than Rey Ordonez? Please provide the reason why you say this ... beyond being a Bill James sheep, I mean.

            Here's Rey (defensive whiz-kid extraordinaire and FULL-TIME SS):





            If Brendan Ryan is so good, then please show me the highlight reels ... hopefully, that shouldn't be a problem, and I hope to see more than just wild guesses.
            Last edited by Mattingly; 11-07-2014, 04:34 PM.
            Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
            Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
            THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
            Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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            • #66
              Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
              WAR per 162 games:

              Rizzuto: 3.96
              Jeter: 4.23

              And Jeter played in over 1,000 more games than Rizzuto.
              Not everyone outside of the SABR forum understands this stat. Can you please explain it? Thanks.
              Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
              Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
              THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
              Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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              • #67
                Originally posted by ipitch View Post
                I answered that question in post #21, and the ESPN graphic says 142 since 2003.

                Why don't you tell us how many runs you think he cost the Yankees on defense? And, tell us how you arrived at that number.
                I've already replied to your post #21. You seem to fail to understand my various points. I'm asking YOU FOLKS how you think that Jeter's defense cost the Yanks. I'm not making some point that Jeter was defensively superior. You folks are talking about Ryan's defensive superiority, with you even making some statement that Ryan was possibly the best ever (perhaps a thread in the history forum could confirm the accuracy of that opinion of yours).

                As I've asked before (more times than I can count), which has never once been answered, since Jeter, unlike Ryan, is known for WINNING in the World Series, then how much did his defense cost in those games? Baseball does have a post-season, and I would think that since you folks are so much talking about defense, that Derek Jeter's defense would be something which can be discussed.

                Now then, how did Derek Jeter do defensively in the various WS and other post-season games that he has played?
                Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting. 2007-11 CBA
                Rest very peacefully, John “Buck” O'Neil (1911-2006) & Philip Francis “Scooter” Rizzuto (1917-2007)
                THE BROOKLYN DODGERS - 1890 thru 1957
                Montreal Expos 1969 - 2004

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
                  ipitch, this is the post #21 which you referenced in your last reply to me. You made a GUESS that Jeter cost the Yanks 15 runs a game. A WILD GUESS. Is that your answer?
                  I asked you to answer the same question, and you didn't even answer. So, my answer is at least better than yours.

                  So a player who's done nothing his whole life beyond warming the bench is better defensively at shortstop than anyone who's ever lived? Better than Ozzy, better than "Bud" Harrelson, better than Rey Ordonez? Please provide the reason why you say this ... beyond being a Bill James sheep, I mean.
                  Ever? No. Active players only. That's why Ryan was compared to Jeter in the first place. The person that wrote the article picked Ryan as the best active defensive SS.

                  You later replied, when I questioned that number of 15 games as follows:

                  So the number of runs that Jeter costs goes from 15 to 50 w/o any explanation whatsoever? Again, how many runs did Jeter cost the Yankees? Please explain how you arrived at that number.
                  I answered it once already. I asked you to answer it. Where is your answer?

                  If Brendan Ryan is so good, then please show me the highlight reels ... hopefully, that shouldn't be a problem, and I hope to see more than just wild guesses.
                  Um, did you forget that Ryan's highlight reel is linked in the article? lol
                  https://archive.org/details/RyanTop20

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Mattingly View Post
                    I've already replied to your post #21. You seem to fail to understand my various points. I'm asking YOU FOLKS how you think that Jeter's defense cost the Yanks. I'm not making some point that Jeter was defensively superior. You folks are talking about Ryan's defensive superiority, with you even making some statement that Ryan was possibly the best ever (perhaps a thread in the history forum could confirm the accuracy of that opinion of yours).
                    Maybe someone else did, but I never said or implied that Ryan was the best SS ever.

                    An in-depth article came out about Jeter's defense just a few days ago. I hope you'll read it.
                    http://regressing.deadspin.com/two-u...9170/+marchman

                    "In the next part of this article, we'll walk through the latest DRA estimate, showing Derek Jeter made approximately 450 fewer successful fielding plays that an average-fielding shortstop playing in his place would have fielded and converted into outs. Jeter played 2,674 defensive games at short. A player playing nearly every game per season, say, 150 games, plays 6 games a week, so Jeter played close to 450 "weeks" at short."

                    Ouch.

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                    • #70
                      Don't say that I never contribute to...heart attacks. Please don't read if you are weak of heart.

                      Why Derek Jeter Is One of the Best Defensive Shortstops of All Time

                      https://www.yankee.blue/players/why-...s-of-all-time/


                      "He'd give you the shirt off his back. Of course he'd call a press conference to announce it" (Catfish Hunter talking about Reggie Jackson)
                      Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                      Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                      Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

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                      • #71
                        I read through this thread. Wow! Major fanboyism.

                        I now declare my man Eddie Murray blazing fast! No one can tell me otherwise!

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                        • #72
                          Fake news.
                          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

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                          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                            Don't say that I never contribute to...heart attacks. Please don't read if you are weak of heart.

                            Why Derek Jeter Is One of the Best Defensive Shortstops of All Time

                            https://www.yankee.blue/players/why-...s-of-all-time/
                            I can't wait for the article explaining why Shaq is the greatest free throw shooter of all time.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Orioles5 View Post

                              I can't wait for the article explaining why Shaq is the greatest free throw shooter of all time.

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                              • #75
                                According to Dr. Michael Schell's preliminary work of fielding for his latest book:

                                https://www.linkedin.com/in/schell-michael-4767b2a

                                https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07285YWB2...ng=UTF8&btkr=1

                                https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00S5Z4WRO...ng=UTF8&btkr=1

                                Based on an amalgam of all the best defensive metrics we have available, through 2020, Derek Jeter is by far the worst fielder in baseball history (with a long career). It's an ocean between him and Chipper Jones (2nd worst all time).

                                See attached.
                                Attached Files

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