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  • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
    Not really. Gut is better than Cam.
    Now Gutierrez is great and all, but I'm not so sure I would go so far as to say he is better than Cameron - at least not Cameron of 2003!

    Cammy was AMAZING in 2003 - getting to everything under the sun!

    Let's compare their numbers for a second:

    Cameron - 2003
    Games - 147
    Innings - 1284
    Chances - 492
    PO - 485
    Assists - 3
    Errors - 4
    DP - 2
    Fld% - .992
    RF/9 - 3.42
    lg. RF/9 - 2.78

    Gutierrez - 2009
    Games - 153
    Innings - 1353
    Chances - 458
    PO - 445
    Assists - 6
    Errors - 7
    DP - 2
    RF/9 - 3.00
    lg. RF/9 - 2.73

    So, what I see here is that Gutierrez played a few more games and had a few more innings in the field . . . yet all he can best Cameron on is in Assists and Errors. And there is a reasonable explanation for this. Cameron has the better arm of the two, and players respect his arm much more than they do Guttierez. So fewer players run with Cameron out there, ergo fewer chances for him to get Assists/DP's.

    Also, while Gutierrez had around 70+ innings over Cameron, Cammy STILL had 40 more PO!!! And look at their RF's; again, Cameron has an ENORMOUS lead over Gutierrez.

    Now, I have gotten to see both of these guys play, day in day out, and from what I have seen, while Gutierrez is great, Cameron was better. Not to say that he (Gutierrez) cannot improve, as he is only 26, but he still has a bit to go to reach Cameron.

    Cameron in 2003 was a mix of Clemente and (Richie) Ashburn. Hard to top that.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Edgartohof View Post

      Cameron in 2003 was a mix of Clemente and (Richie) Ashburn.
      :bowdown:

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
        :bowdown:

        Glad you see the truth now!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Edgartohof View Post
          Glad you see the truth now!
          To be honest with you. Most of my Cam sighting was during his tenure with the Mets. He was a very good fielder then but not as good as Gut is now. I also did see him quite a bit during the magical 2001 season as the Mariner games were televised quite often that year for obvious reason. He was great that year but I thought Ichiro might have been a smidgen better. Anyway....I looked up Cam's defense stats from 2003 and yes you are right. He was out of this world that year!

          BTW, who had the better arm? Ichiro or Clemente? Never saw Roberto play but I would presume Clemente?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
            To be honest with you. Most of my Cam sighting was during his tenure with the Mets. He was a very good fielder then but not as good as Gut is now. I also did see him quite a bit during the magical 2001 season as the Mariner games were televised quite often that year for obvious reason. He was great that year but I thought Ichiro might have been a smidgen better. Anyway....I looked up Cam's defense stats from 2003 and yes you are right. He was out of this world that year!

            BTW, who had the better arm? Ichiro or Clemente? Never saw Roberto play but I would presume Clemente?
            I unfortunately did not have an opportunity to see Clemente either, but from what I have heard, seen and read, I would say that Clemente had a slightly stronger arm, but Ichiro's is much more accurate . . . so take your pick.

            I would prefer the accuracy of Ichiro versus a little more power - because it's not like Ich is lacking anything in that department. Ich can still reach any part of the ball park, and will usually be spot on to the reciever.

            Vlad Guerrero is a much better defensive comparison to Clemente - again, slightly stronger than Ichiro, but again, not nearly as accurate.

            2001-2003 was a fun time to be an M's fan - the defense that we had on the team was just phenomenal:

            Ichiro Suzuki (9 GG's)
            Mike Cameron (3 GG's)
            John Olerud (3 GG's)
            Brett Boone (4 GG's)
            Dan Wilson (0 GG's, but has the highest Fld% of all Catchers - .995 !)
            Last edited by Edgartohof; 11-19-2009, 08:55 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Edgartohof View Post
              Cameron in 2003 was a mix of Clemente and (Richie) Ashburn. Hard to top that.
              I was skeptical when we first got Cameron... but the moment he did a full sprint into RCF and leaped up to snatch a ball that was 3-4 feet over the fence... I was sold.

              After that, it was like eating popcorn and taking in an action movie. Loved to watch ANYTHING deep into the gaps when Cammy was out there. He really made it easy to forget Junior (at least defensively).
              Swing and a drive! This one is deep! This one is... over the fence and into the neighbor's yard!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stumanji View Post
                I was skeptical when we first got Cameron... but the moment he did a full sprint into RCF and leaped up to snatch a ball that was 3-4 feet over the fence... I was sold.

                After that, it was like eating popcorn and taking in an action movie. Loved to watch ANYTHING deep into the gaps when Cammy was out there. He really made it easy to forget Junior (at least defensively).
                I know, most people figured it was impossible to replace Griffey (again, just defensively), but Cameron was the one to do it.

                Comment


                • Just saw the 2009 Win Shares list elsewhere on this site, and thought it deserved another look at here.

                  AL
                  1 - Mauer 27.1
                  2 - Cabrera 24.7
                  3 - Jeter 24.5
                  4 - Ichiro 23.7
                  5 - Teixeira 23.4
                  6 - Greinke 23.3
                  7 - Figgins 23.2
                  8 - Youkilis 23.0
                  9 - F. Hernandez 22.2
                  10 - Morales 21.9

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Edgartohof View Post
                    I unfortunately did not have an opportunity to see Clemente either, but from what I have heard, seen and read, I would say that Clemente had a slightly stronger arm, but Ichiro's is much more accurate . . . so take your pick.

                    I would prefer the accuracy of Ichiro versus a little more power - because it's not like Ich is lacking anything in that department. Ich can still reach any part of the ball park, and will usually be spot on to the reciever.

                    Vlad Guerrero is a much better defensive comparison to Clemente - again, slightly stronger than Ichiro, but again, not nearly as accurate.
                    I recall seeing a video of Ichiro throwing to a catcher behind the plate all the way from Centerfield and he almost throws a strike. It was a little out of the strike zone from what I recall. I think it was Putz who sees it and exclaims something like "that's unbelievable!" :bowdown:

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
                      I recall seeing a video of Ichiro throwing to a catcher behind the plate all the way from Centerfield and he almost throws a strike. It was a little out of the strike zone from what I recall. I think it was Putz who sees it and exclaims something like "that's unbelievable!" :bowdown:
                      Getting to watch him play every day for the past 9 seasons (wow, has it been that long!), has been just amazing! His exploits at the plate, on the bases (he does hold the AL record for consecutive steals w/out getting caught . . .), and are unbelievable.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
                        I recall seeing a video of Ichiro throwing to a catcher behind the plate all the way from Centerfield and he almost throws a strike. It was a little out of the strike zone from what I recall. I think it was Putz who sees it and exclaims something like "that's unbelievable!" :bowdown:
                        In game, I watched Ichiro throw from the RF warning track to Dan Wilson without a crow-hop, with no bounces, when a runner tagged from third.

                        Of course, the runner scored easily, but it was still impressive. Got a nice ovation from the crowd for it.

                        When I was in high school, I could hit the LF/RF fences in the air, from home plate, but that required a nice 5-7 step approach and the fences were 10-20 feet closer than that of Safeco Field.
                        Swing and a drive! This one is deep! This one is... over the fence and into the neighbor's yard!

                        Comment


                        • So whadda say, Folks? Will time finally start catching up to Ichiro or will this be another 200 plus hit season? Do you think he can get back to the 240 hit level?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Iowanic View Post
                            So whadda say, Folks? ...will this be another 200 plus hit season?
                            If he stays healthy and doesn't miss a substantial number of games I don't see any reason why he shouldn't get to 200 again. He can't go on forever of course, but since he missed the most games of his career last season and still accumulated 225 hits, it doesn't seem like he's tailing off at all yet.

                            10 in a row, that would be pretty darn cool.

                            It's just too bad the Mariners didn't have a better "O" behind him last year or that 100+ R streak would still be alive too. Rats.

                            Comment


                            • Yeah, I think he makes it. I don't see him slowing down the way other players do. He stays limber. His speed won't drop off (he's not gaining weight, afterall) for a while. Even if he has a 75% decline in infield hits, he still would push past 200 hits.
                              Swing and a drive! This one is deep! This one is... over the fence and into the neighbor's yard!

                              Comment


                              • Ichiro is probably not as fast or as quick as he was when he was 27 years old. But he was so fast to begin with, even with a decline in speed he's still one of the fastest players in baseball.
                                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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