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  • #16
    Originally posted by wilkerson_rulz-06
    No offense either, but do you ever verify your outlandish claims before your say them?

    Oh, and there are certain pitchers such as AJ Burnett and Roy Halladay that are getting paid more than Ryan and if I may say so, Ryan would certainly add a punch to those two.

    Hmmm, do you recall a certain Derek Lowe who had 40 saves as a closer and then became a great starter? Yeah I didn't think so, and what about certain others like a certain Curt Schilling, Matt Mantei, Byung-Yung Kim, Danny Graves, Jose Jimenez, oh, and former Jays closer Kelvim Escobar.

    That never happens huh?
    Eh, using Matt Mantei, Byung-Hyung Kim, Danny Graves, and Jose Jimenez don't help your point at all. Also, Schilling was always considered a starting pitcher. A lot of young pitchers are used in the bullpen, but he was always considered a starting pitcher. Also, Derek Lowe was a starting pitcher all through the minors, and then closed for 3 years when he came up to the bigs. So that transition back to being a starter was (1) something he wanted to do, and (2) was a role he was very familiar with. Lastly, Escobar was a closer 2 out of his 10 years in the bigs. Which role do you think he's more accustomed to?
    ~MOE

    Moonlight Graham
    ...one game, no at-bats...


    RisingApple.com

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    • #17
      Originally posted by TheKingofKings
      No offense , but are you crazy ???
      An established Closer (exept Jon Smoltz) has never made that type of move and it will never happen , the Jays pay him that much , even if ridiculous , to be the Closer .
      Actually Smoltz was a starter before he became the closer, I remember Derek Lowe being a closer at one point in his career as well. Papelbon will be doing the same thing next year for the sox as well.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by moebarguy
        Eh, using Matt Mantei, Byung-Hyung Kim, Danny Graves, and Jose Jimenez don't help your point at all.
        I love it!
        Like Maple Syrup, Canada's evil oozes over the United States.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Defense Counts!
          Closers are so over-rated. For the money he makes, Ryan should be pitching a LOT more innings. Certainly his ERA is great, but with 75 innings a year, he simply doesn't have that much impact on the game.

          When you go from Miguel Batista to BJ Ryan on the back-end of the bullpen in one year, you see how much of an impact a closer really has.

          Your statement "For the money he makes, Ryan should be pitching a LOT more innings" makes no sense. He isn't paid to eat innings. He is paid to pin down a win when the pressure's on. Which brings me to this quote:

          Originally posted by Defense Counts!
          If a starting pitcher or player played that little, no-one would be gushing over him. How much impact can a player have who spends most of his time on the bench?
          The thing is, he's not a starting pitcher. He is paid to do a different job. While he may spend alot of time on the bench, BJ Ryan helped the Jays get more wins this season than last, simply by not blowing as many saves as previous Jays closers have.

          For example, last year, Batista was 31/39 in save opportunities. A 79.5% conversion rate. This year, Ryan was 38/42, a 90% conversion rate. If you apply that 90% rate to the 39 opportunities Batista had last year, you get 35 saves.

          This means (and in no way is this scientifically accurate, but it is just a general demonstration) that having Ryan last season would have resulted in more wins for the Blue Jays.

          Originally posted by Defense Counts!
          Also, to have an impact, you have to play when the game is on the line. Ryan usually came in during the ninth inning, with a lead, and nobody on base. Any decent reliever will come out of that situation with a save most of the time.
          Let me just ask how much you follow the Blue Jays. Now let me say this. BJ Ryan made 42 appearances this year. Out of those 42 appearances, 18 of them (43%) were more than one inning. BJ Ryan was used many times in the eighth inning when one of the setup men got into a jam. Your claim that "Ryan usually came in during the ninth inning, with a lead, and nobody on base" has no basis in fact.

          Originally posted by Defense Counts!
          First off, he pitched 72 innings; that's less than half-an-inning per game.
          This has no relavance. This isn't even a stat! He averaged over an inning per appearance (1.1), which is the real stat you should cite. This would also indicate that he (more often than not) did not come in in the ninth inning, as you claim.
          WAMCO!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by RichmondHillPhoenix
            When you go from Miguel Batista to BJ Ryan on the back-end of the bullpen in one year, you see how much of an impact a closer really has.
            beautiful statement. remember how batista used to write novels? i remember on espn they had a picture for a magazine about the jays 2005 season and it said 'batista pens novels in 3 different languages, blows saves in spanish and english'

            one guy i wish the jays still had was kelvim escobar. he was a great pitcher but the jays mis-used him lots. beign a closer for a month then starting two games then back to the pen, must have been hard for him to do that. wish we still had him. be a great starter for us.

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            • #21
              It was always exciting (in the wrong sense of the word) when Batista came in to attempt a save... Any Jays fan will know what I mean.
              WAMCO!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by GO-SKYCHIEFS-GO
                35+ saves for Ryan. He came in every time with the game on the line. He didnt come in with a 6 run lead, he came in with a 3 or 2 maybe even a 1 run lead. about 40 times he came into the game when it was on the line.
                A three-run lead in the ninth inning does not constitute the game being "on the line". To blow a lead that big, a pitcher must have an ERA of 27.00! To blow a two-run lead, he would need an ERA of 18.00. If he gave up one run in the ninth, that means for that game he had an ERA of 9.00. Obviously, no major league pitcher would last long with those kind of numbers.

                Originally posted by GO-SKYCHIEFS-GO
                and 72 innings is about half an inning per game?!?,
                Yes. 72 innings divided by 162 games = less than half an inning per game.

                Originally posted by GO-SKYCHIEFS-GO
                he was a closer and i dont know if youve notist but the Jays werent all that great last year, they didnt win alot of games but the 37 out of 86 i belive? wins that the Jays had he saved them, he was nothin short of spectacular this season that is foresure and i cant even think of the words Ryan and suck in the same sentence.
                The Jays won 87 games, and lost 75, which means they they won more often than they lost; closers can only collect a save if the team gives them a lead.

                And by the way, nowhere in my post did I use the word 'suck'. Please read it again.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Defense Counts!
                  Yes. 72 innings divided by 162 games = less than half an inning per game.
                  Here is my response from a previous post (which you conviently didn't reply to):

                  Originally posted by RHP
                  This has no relavance. This isn't even a stat[for a closer]! He averaged over an inning per appearance (1.1), which is the real stat you should cite. This would also indicate that he (more often than not) did not come in in the ninth inning, as you claim.
                  WAMCO!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by RichmondHillPhoenix
                    For example, last year, Batista was 31/39 in save opportunities. A 79.5% conversion rate. This year, Ryan was 38/42, a 90% conversion rate. If you apply that 90% rate to the 39 opportunities Batista had last year, you get 35 saves.

                    This means (and in no way is this scientifically accurate, but it is just a general demonstration) that having Ryan last season would have resulted in more wins for the Blue Jays.
                    I agree that Ryan was an improvement over Batista, but did he have that much more impact? According to your own stats, Ryan accounted for just 4 more saves than Batista. At most, that's 4 more wins. (And not all blown saves result in losses).



                    Originally posted by RichmondHillPhoenix
                    Let me just ask how much you follow the Blue Jays. Now let me say this. BJ Ryan made 42 appearances this year. Out of those 42 appearances, 18 of them (43%) were more than one inning. BJ Ryan was used many times in the eighth inning when one of the setup men got into a jam. Your claim that "Ryan usually came in during the ninth inning, with a lead, and nobody on base" has no basis in fact.
                    If only 43% of his appearances were more than one inning, then 57% of them were ONE INNING OR LESS. Once again, your stats prove my point! (The word 'usually' means 'more often than not'. 57% is more often than 43%).


                    Originally posted by RichmondHillPhoenix
                    This has no relavance. This isn't even a stat! He averaged over an inning per appearance (1.1), which is the real stat you should cite. This would also indicate that he (more often than not) did not come in in the ninth inning, as you claim.
                    I don't have the stats in front of me, but I would wager that MOST OF THE TIME he came into the game in the ninth inning. Of course he AVERAGED more than one inning per appearance, because he OCCASIONALLY pitched two innings. But more often than not (that is, at least 51% of the time) he came into the game in the ninth, with nobody on base.

                    And of course the number of innings pitched is a stat! Why do you think that in order to win an ERA title, a pitcher must pitch a minimum number of innings? Ryan didn't win the ERA title this year, or even qualify for it, because he didn't pitch ENOUGH.

                    I also think you are missing the thrust of my argument. I am not saying he was not a good pitcher this year. OF COURSE he was very good ... when he played. He simply did not play enough to have a MAJOR IMPACT on the season.

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                    • #25
                      Here are the stats for some of the leading closers this season:

                      Joe Nathan: 68.1 innings pitched 1.59 ERA
                      K-Rod: 73.0 innings pitched 1.73 ERA
                      Mariano Rivera: 75 innings pitched 1.80 ERA

                      BJ Ryan: 72.1 innings pitched 1.37 ERA

                      So unless you say that closers in general have little effect on the game, then I really can't see how you can have an argument.
                      WAMCO!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RichmondHillPhoenix
                        So unless you say that closers in general have little effect on the game, then I really can't see how you can have an argument.
                        That is exactly my point. Closers in general pitch TOO LITTLE to have a major impact on a SEASON (although they sometimes have an impact on an individual game). And the people who run the majors clearly agree, which is why none of these closers can win an ERA title.

                        For others opinions on the role of closers, see the thread NO INCENTIVE TO CLOSE, under S.A. & S.
                        Last edited by Defense Counts!; 10-19-2006, 07:13 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Defense Counts!
                          That is exactly my point. Closers in general pitch TOO LITTLE to have a major impact on a SEASON (although they sometimes have an impact on an individual game). And the people who run the majors clearly agree, which is why none of these closers can win an ERA title.

                          For others opinions on the role of closers, see the thread NO INCENTIVE TO CLOSE, under S.A. & S.
                          they do have an impact on a season though. do you think the jays would have won this many games this season with batista closing ball-games? no, they probably would have lost 3 or 4 more ballgame. milwaukee's closer (turnbow?) blew 4 games in a week. that may have very well cost milwaukee a possible playoff spot. i can see your arguement but closers have just as much value as a starter.

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