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  • #31
    Originally posted by Chris from NY
    Like I said, JP was given a payroll to work with before the 2006 season. . That left one season for this team to make the playoffs. They finished second place in that season, the highest they've been since they won the WS. I am hereby guaranteeing the Blue Jays make the playoffs in 2007, and that they will be WS contenders over the next few years.
    Wow, bold prediction. Good luck, I just hope it's not at the expense of the Twins.

    We'll have to come back here in 9 months to find out, but I think the Jays have fallen significantly behind the Yankees and Red Sox this year (I'm rooting for the Jays, or anyone for that matter, in the division to unseat those teams) and I don't see them as any better than the 5th best team in the AL.

    Comment


    • #32
      I gave him an 8. I honestly think he's in the ranks of Terry Ryan and Billy Beane. He plans for the the future, he adapts to the payroll restrictions as necessary, he takes educated risks, he's a fan of the game and he's an interesting character (without trying to steal the spotlight too much).
      Don't make fun of the Blue Jay's bullpen. They've got Downs.

      Comment


      • #33
        Someone please list the great things he's done that have shown his ability to plan for the future (other than the obvious)???!!! My point is this...he's done nothing outside of getting the obvious. When given the money to spend, anyone can go out and spend it on the best free agents. Show me where he's made that "steal" of a trade... ...or where he's gambled on a free agent that nobody wanted and received huge rewards (e.g., Frank Thomas last year). He's done nothing but obvious things, so how can you possibly say that he's an 8 or even remotely in the category of Ryan or Beane?

        Comment


        • #34
          -Not trading Alex Rios. I'm sure he had plenty of chances to while Rios was developing. After two years, the guy is an all-star.
          -Getting Justin Speier. in a 3 team deal (just look how good Mark Hendrickson turned out.)
          -Signing Frank Catalanatto.
          -Signing Greg Myers and Gregg Zaun.
          -Getting Ted Lilly (and 3 solid seasons) for Booby Kielty. (And they think Billy beane is a genius)
          -If he hadn't been such a cancer in the room, getting Shea Heillenbrand would have been a much better signing.
          -Adding Troy Glaus to the line-up paid dividends to the team. it's unfortunate that they lost Hudson in the process, but such is life.
          -Pete Walker had four cinsistent seasons with the Jays. He was a waiver pick-up. (Was anybody deating down any doors for his services?)
          -Signing, trading, then reacquiring John McDonald. The guy is very solid defensively, and makes a great utility guy.

          I could go on.
          Bottom line, when JP was hired, he was expected to slash payroll. That is what he did. he removed a ton of dead-weight from the roster, and now that he is finally given a commitment to winning and finacial backing from ownership, he is supposed to turn it down. That doesn't make sense to me.

          Ted Rogers: "Here ya go JP. take this money and make the Blue jays a good team again."
          JP Ricciardi: "Thank you Mr. Rogers but, unfortunatley, I must decline. I have to try and do it just like Beane and Ryan have. That way I will have the satisfaction of knowing that my team will be cloaked in mediocricy throughout my tenure, but atleast I will know that we were mediocre on a small budget."
          Ted Rogers: "You're crazy, buddy. I'm going to hire somebody who wants to win."
          JP:"That's just fine with me. I'm sure the Twins job will open up as soon as Santana, Mauer, Morneau, Nathan, Liriano, and Nathan are all gone via free agency because they can't afford to sign them and then Twins fans realize that all the developing through the minors is all for not because the Twins did nothing and never won the WS."

          Billy Beane and Terry Ryan can try and play in the same division as the Yankees and Red Sox. Guaranteed they NEVER make the playoffs and have to resort to the evil and horrible notion of spending money on good players
          Like Maple Syrup, Canada's evil oozes over the United States.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Chris from NY
            Ted Rogers: "Here ya go JP. take this money and make the Blue jays a good team again."
            JP Ricciardi: "Thank you Mr. Rogers but, unfortunatley, I must decline. I have to try and do it just like Beane and Ryan have. That way I will have the satisfaction of knowing that my team will be cloaked in mediocricy throughout my tenure, but atleast I will know that we were mediocre on a small budget."
            Ted Rogers: "You're crazy, buddy. I'm going to hire somebody who wants to win."
            JP:"That's just fine with me. I'm sure the Twins job will open up as soon as Santana, Mauer, Morneau, Nathan, Liriano, and Nathan are all gone via free agency because they can't afford to sign them and then Twins fans realize that all the developing through the minors is all for not because the Twins did nothing and never won the WS."

            Billy Beane and Terry Ryan can try and play in the same division as the Yankees and Red Sox. Guaranteed they NEVER make the playoffs and have to resort to the evil and horrible notion of spending money on good players
            I'm not saying he has to do it like the Twins and A's (I hate the fact that the richest owner in baseball - Pohlad - won't spend money on his team). He's been given the money and he should be spending it on good players, which he has done. But, I still don't see where he rates as an 8...he's done a good job of signing obviously good free agents (a no-brainer). I understand that the Twins and A's aren't competing against the Yankees and Red Sox, so we're certainly not comparing apples to apples here, but the Blue Jays are still nothing more than an also-ran in the division. The Twins and A's consistently lose their superstars year after year and find players for fractions of the price and go out and win the following year, that's what makes them great.

            As for your remark about the Twins losing their stars to free agency in the near future - you're right, some of them will go, just likt they always do, but the Twins will rebuild with good young talent and cheap free agents that fit into their system and will be right in the hunt with the teams like the White Sox, Tigers, Mariners, Rangers, Blue Jays, Orioles, etc.

            I guess I would use this analogy:
            Is Joe Torre a "great manager" or a "manager of a great team"? I have always said that he is the latter of the two. He is a "good" manager that deserves credit for being such, but he's not great (as evidence by his prior managerial record). I guess that's what I'm trying to say here...JP is good, but not great. I'm trying to work on some support to demonstrate my point to respond to the first part of your post. Later gentlemen.

            Comment


            • #36
              David Bush, Gabe Gross, Zach Jackson, Received Lyle Overbay and Ty Taubenheim
              Another great trade. Overbay is a doubles machine, and is a great #5 hitter.
              WAMCO!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Colorado Express
                As for your remark about the Twins losing their stars to free agency in the near future - you're right, some of them will go, just likt they always do, but the Twins will rebuild with good young talent and cheap free agents that fit into their system and will be right in the hunt with the teams like the White Sox, Tigers, Mariners, Rangers, Blue Jays, Orioles, etc.
                And how long before Twins fans get sick of this? None of it will mean a thing unless the Twins are able to win the WS. Something they have not managed to do in Ryan's long tenure. JP was given a horrible team that was chock full of huge mistakes from the previous regime. He was instructed to to payroll and cut costs. Now that he has been given some monetary backing, he has guided the team to a second place finish. In essentially, two years, he has put together a team that was able to finish higher than the Red Sox for the first tme in a long time. Terry Ryan, on the other hand, was given a team that had won the WS only a couple of seasons prior. Under Ryan's control, the team promptly lost for the rest of the '90's. Since that time, the Twins have been unable to accomplish anything by way of the playoffs, however, fans remain optimistic and believe that Ryan is doing a very good job, and should be considered one of the top GM's in the league.
                Like Maple Syrup, Canada's evil oozes over the United States.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Colorado Express
                  Someone please list the great things he's done that have shown his ability to plan for the future (other than the obvious)???!!! My point is this...he's done nothing outside of getting the obvious. When given the money to spend, anyone can go out and spend it on the best free agents. Show me where he's made that "steal" of a trade... ...or where he's gambled on a free agent that nobody wanted and received huge rewards (e.g., Frank Thomas last year). He's done nothing but obvious things, so how can you possibly say that he's an 8 or even remotely in the category of Ryan or Beane?
                  Well CE, Chris from NY did a pretty good job at naming off some good JP moves. There have been many others*, and rarely were they merely doing the obvious. But being a good GM is not just making impressive trades, or finding the biggest "diamond in the rough".

                  "Steal" trades or pickups are great, but pretty much all "steals" are fluke when it comes down to it. Billy Beane wasn't blessed with some sort of divine knowledge that Frank Thomas was going to have an amazing second half last year.

                  He had:
                  - the ability to see talent
                  - money in the budget
                  - room on the roster (AL-DH)
                  - a need for the things Thomas can bring (slugging)
                  - and most of all... the ability to reap the rewards (playoffs)

                  The fact that Beane (and Ryan) does this regularily and times his moves out well so that the A's can be competitive year in and year out is what makes him great. It's not his "steals" of trades (although personally, I'd be terrified to accept a trade Beane offered me), nor is it his (their) reclamation projects.

                  Bad GMs fail to align their moves in order to be able to take advantage overall. Look at signings like KC taking Meche for 5 yrs at 55M. It's not the dollars involved (although too high), not the player (we coveted him too). But what the hell is KC really going to gain from his 11M a year? Are they in any position to make the playoffs now, or even within 5 yrs? You really have to wonder what the Royals play IS!

                  If you don't think that JP has a plan (ie. plans for the future), then look at the next 2-4 years out and the core of signed core players we have. Halliday, Burnett, Wells, Ryan, Overbay, Russ Adams . These guys are surrounded by a couple veterens with shorter contracts (Thomas, Glaus) to help push things over the edge. The Jays look well in position to compete over the next 5 years already.. and I have confidence JP will keep moving this window forward.

                  We have no "red-herring" contracts hanging over our heads (you're from Colorado.. remember a guy named Mike Hampton?). We aren't a team which is one season away from losing all our quality talent for nothing, and having to start over (Marlins perpetually).

                  The Jays machine is running very well. We've already proven to be competitive in a division which it is just as hard to get a wildcard as a title. We obviously have strength going in to the future, and are more likely to get better in the short-term rather than worse. Even on a personal note, the makeup of the organization is very good. We've jettisoned head cases like Raul Mondesi and Shea Hillenbrand, and committed to great people like Halliday and Wells. I think this all speaks volumes for the quality of GM JP is, and for his ability to plan for the future. I can't really imagine what more you'd want from a GM.



                  * you other guys named most of the better JP moves, but here are a couple random moves which I liked:
                  - finding somebody to unload Hinske on
                  - noticing Koch was done
                  - not paying the stupid money being given out to starting pitching this year (even though we needed it perhaps more than others) and waiting out a deal on the cheap for Ohka
                  - BJ Ryan (now that's a friggin closer!)
                  - trading Batista (I know technically it's the same deal as acquiring Glaus for Hudson... but boy I was happy to see him go
                  - acquiring Overbay (he's what I hoped Koskie would be)
                  Last edited by ssmaill; 01-26-2007, 09:36 PM.
                  Don't make fun of the Blue Jay's bullpen. They've got Downs.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Richmond Hill Phoenix
                    Another great trade. Overbay is a doubles machine, and is a great #5 hitter.
                    ...and Dave Bush is a solid pitcher for a 6th the price.

                    I'll defer to you, as Blue Jay fans, but I think Bush over Janssen would have resulted in more wins than Overbay over Hinske/Hillenbrand? I always felt that Hinske and Hillenbrand were pretty darn good players and adding Overbay (although a very good player in his own rite) only built on a strength they already had.

                    Again, you as fans of the team seem to be very happy with what he has done and I guess that's what's most important, but I don't see the Blue Jays winning the division or making the playoffs with what they have right now.

                    Again, Good Luck!!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Chris from NY
                      And how long before Twins fans get sick of this? None of it will mean a thing unless the Twins are able to win the WS. Something they have not managed to do in Ryan's long tenure. JP was given a horrible team that was chock full of huge mistakes from the previous regime. He was instructed to to payroll and cut costs. Now that he has been given some monetary backing, he has guided the team to a second place finish. In essentially, two years, he has put together a team that was able to finish higher than the Red Sox for the first tme in a long time. Terry Ryan, on the other hand, was given a team that had won the WS only a couple of seasons prior. Under Ryan's control, the team promptly lost for the rest of the '90's. Since that time, the Twins have been unable to accomplish anything by way of the playoffs, however, fans remain optimistic and believe that Ryan is doing a very good job, and should be considered one of the top GM's in the league.
                      Are you saying that A's and Twins fans shouldn't be happy with making the playoffs every year? I've been thrilled 4 of the past 5 years!!! Am I disappointed that they haven't won a WS since '91? Yes, I am!!! All I ask of my team is that they put a competitive team on the field in years that they can and in years that they can't, don't spend foolishly (i.e., the Royals on Gil Meche). I don't blame Terry Ryan because the Twins can't shell out $100 million on their payroll. I respect him more for giving me 4 happy years in the last 5 with a small-budget payroll.

                      Yes, he's made a few bad moves (i.e., electing to re-sign Doug Mientkiewicz instead of David Ortiz - although Mientkiewicz was one of the leaders on the team that went to the playoffs for the 1st time of their current stretch), but nearly every one of his moves have been golden (e.g., the following KEY players forced themselves out of the Twins budget and how they were replaced - Mientkiewicz/Morneau, Koskie/Cuddyer, Guzman/Bartlett, Lohse/Liriano, Mays/Silva, Milton/Rogers, Guardado/Nathan, Hawkins/Crain, Pierzynski/Mauer, Mohr/Stewart, Romero/Reyes, Rivas/Punto Jones/Castillo and Rogers/Santana). In the last 5 years, he has been forced to turn over 7 of the 8 positional starters, 5 starting pitchers, 2 of the best middle relievers in baseball and 1 closer. All this has been done for less money and with players that have out-produced those that they were replacing. This is why I say Ryan is great and Ricciardi is only good.

                      Maybe we are saying the same thing, but from different perspectives as we both seem to agree that he's doing a good job. My perspective is that he is simply performing at a "6" level when compared to all GMs. Your perspective may be that he's building a good club (one that the fans will get behind, support and feel like they have a chance) and this is worth an "8" to you.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ssmaill
                        Well CE, Chris from NY did a pretty good job at naming off some good JP moves. There have been many others*, and rarely were they merely doing the obvious. But being a good GM is not just making impressive trades, or finding the biggest "diamond in the rough".

                        "Steal" trades or pickups are great, but pretty much all "steals" are fluke when it comes down to it. Billy Beane wasn't blessed with some sort of divine knowledge that Frank Thomas was going to have an amazing second half last year.

                        He had:
                        - the ability to see talent
                        - money in the budget
                        - room on the roster (AL-DH)
                        - a need for the things Thomas can bring (slugging)
                        - and most of all... the ability to reap the rewards (playoffs)

                        The fact that Beane (and Ryan) does this regularily and times his moves out well so that the A's can be competitive year in and year out is what makes him great. It's not his "steals" of trades (although personally, I'd be terrified to accept a trade Beane offered me), nor is it his (their) reclamation projects.

                        Bad GMs fail to align their moves in order to be able to take advantage overall. Look at signings like KC taking Meche for 5 yrs at 55M. It's not the dollars involved (although too high), not the player (we coveted him too). But what the hell is KC really going to gain from his 11M a year? Are they in any position to make the playoffs now, or even within 5 yrs? You really have to wonder what the Royals play IS!

                        If you don't think that JP has a plan (ie. plans for the future), then look at the next 2-4 years out and the core of signed core players we have. Halliday, Burnett, Wells, Ryan, Overbay, Russ Adams . These guys are surrounded by a couple veterens with shorter contracts (Thomas, Glaus) to help push things over the edge. The Jays look well in position to compete over the next 5 years already.. and I have confidence JP will keep moving this window forward.

                        We have no "red-herring" contracts hanging over our heads (you're from Colorado.. remember a guy named Mike Hampton?). We aren't a team which is one season away from losing all our quality talent for nothing, and having to start over (Marlins perpetually).

                        The Jays machine is running very well. We've already proven to be competitive in a division which it is just as hard to get a wildcard as a title. We obviously have strength going in to the future, and are more likely to get better in the short-term rather than worse. Even on a personal note, the makeup of the organization is very good. We've jettisoned head cases like Raul Mondesi and Shea Hillenbrand, and committed to great people like Halliday and Wells. I think this all speaks volumes for the quality of GM JP is, and for his ability to plan for the future. I can't really imagine what more you'd want from a GM.



                        * you other guys named most of the better JP moves, but here are a couple random moves which I liked:
                        - finding somebody to unload Hinske on
                        - noticing Koch was done
                        - not paying the stupid money being given out to starting pitching this year (even though we needed it perhaps more than others) and waiting out a deal on the cheap for Ohka
                        - BJ Ryan (now that's a friggin closer!)
                        - trading Batista (I know technically it's the same deal as acquiring Glaus for Hudson... but boy I was happy to see him go
                        - acquiring Overbay (he's what I hoped Koskie would be)
                        We choose to disagree with what a GMs job is obviously. Unless you are the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers, where money is NO object, a SUCCESSFUL GMs job is exactly what you've said it's not.

                        How can you say that great trades are "flukes"? I beg you to find more than 1 bad trade that the Twins have made in the past 10 years (I'm not saying that there isn't one, but I certainly can't think of any). There are many trades that may look "bad" as a result of needs (e.g., Larry Andersen for Jeff Bagwell or Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz), but I'm certainly excluding these as they aren't bad trades at that "snapshot in time". Great trades are those where the both teams feel like they made off great (e.g., Pierzynski for Bonser, Nathan and Liriano or Mulder for Haren, Barton and Calero). I can even think of one that we can both relate to, Stewart for Kielty. The Blue Jays believed that they were getting one of the better young RF hitters in the game, while the Twins believed that they were getting a great leader that would help them get to the playoffs while the Blue Jays paid his salary(to refresh your memories, below is the quote from Ricciardi regarding Kielty).

                        "We were able to get someone we had tried really hard to get the last couple of years," Ricciardi said. "This is the same type of offensive player that (Frank) Catalanotto is.

                        "We've got this guy for four years before he can become a free agent. This is basically getting Shannon Stewart right from the start."



                        Let me try this again, by putting in another manner..."Has he done anything that you, as a Blue Jay fan, wouldn't have done?" If the answer is "no" why do you think so highly of him? I think this is why I'm confused. If it's something I could have done, then he's not doing that great of a job (by the way, that's supposed to be funny).

                        Don't forget, this is the same guy that signed Hinske and Koskie to long-term, high dollar deals and don't even get me started on Molina.

                        He's also traded Hillenbrand for virtually nothing (I realize this was more a trade out of necessity than anything else), Hinske for nothing (salary dump), Batista and Hudson for a position already filled by 3 players (Koskie, Hinske and Hillenbrand), Bush for Overbay (trade looks good now, has potential to look bad considering they had a decent bat filling the position and they better hope they don't need pitching in the near future), Stewart for nothing and Felipe Lopez for nothing. Doesn't this upset you? Don't you feel like your payroll has gone up 10%, but your talent has only gone up 3%? It's no big deal right now, but this is the stuff that comes back to haunt franchises (ticket prices go up to help pay for the talent, people quit going when the team falls out of the playoff race, budget gets tighter, mediocre team is put on the field until team can re-build).
                        Last edited by Colorado Express; 01-27-2007, 12:00 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Hey, I'm having a good time with the debate...I hope you guys don't mind me hijacking your thread.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Colorado Express
                            Hey, I'm having a good time with the debate...I hope you guys don't mind me hijacking your thread.
                            No worries, you're welcome anytime. We need something to do until ST starts....

                            ...and Dave Bush is a solid pitcher for a 6th the price.

                            I'll defer to you, as Blue Jay fans, but I think Bush over Janssen would have resulted in more wins than Overbay over Hinske/Hillenbrand? I always felt that Hinske and Hillenbrand were pretty darn good players and adding Overbay (although a very good player in his own rite) only built on a strength they already had.
                            While I agree that we may have needed Bush last season more than we needed Overbay, I think that the deal will look better and better as time passes. Overbay is a huge upgrade over Hinske/Hillenbrand. There was something about Hillenbrand that just didn't feel right. The stats never really told the story with him. He always seemed to be the guy striking out with the bases loaded. And Hinske was just plain bad. The guy who never developped into his potential.

                            Bush is a decent #4/#5 guy in the NL, but I think he would get killed over here, facing the Sox and Yanks. Overbay is a good everyday 1B, who hits for good average, and has some power. With guys like Glaus, Wells and Thomas we don't really need a power-1B. He fits the role beautifully.

                            I'll agree with you that it wasn't a massive steal for the Jays. Both teams made out well (since the Brewers now have Prince Fielder). The Jays hoped that some of their younger pitching would fill in where Bush left, and maybe it will this season.

                            Overall, it was a good trade for both teams, that filled the needs that they had. That seems to be the kind of deals that JP has pulled. Nothing crazy, no deals where we are the true winners, but he has filled our needs while not giving up key pieces. Maybe that's not as good as a guy who finds the diamond in the rough, but I couldn't ask for much more from JP.
                            WAMCO!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Colorado Express
                              Are you saying that A's and Twins fans shouldn't be happy with making the playoffs every year?
                              No, just that, sooner or later, teams must put up or shut up,. The A's and Twins have been good teams the last little while. Both teams could be great and seriously prove their worth as elite teams. Neither team has been able to accomplish this. This is something, I believe, the Jays can do with JP at the helm. Maybe I am just wearing blue tinged glasses, but I really think that the Jays will be able to have more success than the Twins or A's.

                              Originally posted by Colorado Express
                              Are you saying that A's and Twins fans shouldn't be happy with making the playoffs every year? I've been thrilled 4 of the past 5 years!!! Am I disappointed that they haven't won a WS since '91? Yes, I am!!! All I ask of my team is that they put a competitive team on the field in years that they can and in years that they can't, don't spend foolishly (i.e., the Royals on Gil Meche). I don't blame Terry Ryan because the Twins can't shell out $100 million on their payroll. I respect him more for giving me 4 happy years in the last 5 with a small-budget payroll.
                              .
                              Sounds like a Riders fan (Trust me, I'm one. I know.)
                              Like Maple Syrup, Canada's evil oozes over the United States.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Colorado Express
                                Hey, I'm having a good time with the debate...I hope you guys don't mind me hijacking your thread.
                                No problems there. Without you, this thread would have been like this:
                                Big_Mac: JP is doing a good job.
                                RichmondHillPhoenix: I agree.
                                Chiefs 4 Life: Me too.
                                Chris from NY: Ya, me too.
                                EvanAparra: I like posting.
                                Flying27: I hate Dustin McGowan.
                                1-5: We know.

                                Sorry guys, but we all know it's the truth.
                                Last edited by Chris from NY; 01-27-2007, 10:53 PM.
                                Like Maple Syrup, Canada's evil oozes over the United States.

                                Comment

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