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  • Jays Outlook for 2010

    Jays' hopes for success taking nose dive

    Aug. 10, 2009
    By Danny Knobler
    CBSSports.com Senior Writer


    NEW YORK
    -- Even with Roy Halladay, the Blue Jays aren't going to win next year.

    Even with Alex Rios, they weren't going to win next year.


    Two-time All-Star Alex Rios is still owed $60 million over five seasons. (Getty Images)

    Even with whomever they can get with all the money they saved by letting Alex Rios go to the White Sox, they're not going to win next year.

    "Not even close," said one scout who watched the Jays a lot in July.

    "They're at least a couple of years away, I think," another said. "I think Baltimore goes by them next year."

    That's not good, because Tampa Bay already went by them last year. And the Blue Jays have been behind the Yankees and Red Sox for basically the past decade.

    • White Sox pick up Rios off waivers from Jays

    The Jays originally saw 2010 as the year they could compete for a playoff spot. Now people are saying they're a lot more likely to finish last than first.

    Now, even general manager J.P. Ricciardi isn't saying with any certainty that the Jays can win next year.

    "I don't know," Ricciardi said. "That's a good question. One thing we know about this division, you can't be good. You have to be great.

    "I can't tell you if we'll have that magical year."

    Not all of this is Ricciardi's fault, but it's widely believed that he will be replaced at the end of this season. Someone else will try to put together this team, with a budget that wouldn't cover the cost of the Yankees' starting infield.

    Some people have suggested that by shedding Rios' contract (which pays him nearly $60 million over the next five seasons), the Jays could now afford to keep Halladay through next year, or even sign him to an extension.

    But does it really make sense to commit $20 million to one starting pitcher, if your entire payroll is going to be around $80 million (and if you're stuck paying center fielder Vernon Wells $23 million in 2011)?

    More likely, Ricciardi's successor will trade Halladay this winter and get younger, cheaper pieces. As Ricciardi admitted after the Jays allowed the Rios claim to go through, this team needs to find a catcher and a shortstop, among other things.

    The Jays do have some talent. They were good enough to lead the AL East through May 23, good enough that without all the pitching injuries they might have finished .500, good enough that in another division they might have come close to contention.

    But they're not in another division. And the pitching didn't stay healthy.

    The Jays expect Scott Richmond, Shaun Marcum and Dustin McGowan to come back next year. They expect Casey Janssen back, too, although they're moving him to the bullpen.

    "I'm sure with our luck, we'll wait for the next batch to get hurt," Ricciardi said.

    Most likely, he'll be elsewhere by then, watching from afar. The next batch of injuries will be someone else's problem, and manager Cito Gaston's problem.

    Gaston is 65 years old, but he's signed through next year. And he insists that the outlook for 2010 isn't as bleak as others make it sound.

    "If everyone comes back healthy, we've got a great chance," he said. "It's a challenge, but it's no fun without challenges. They get you up in the morning, and they keep you up at night."

    Good for him if he believes that, but winning with this Blue Jays team, in this division, is a bigger challenge than winning the World Series in back-to-back years.

    Then again, Gaston is the last guy to meet that challenge. Maybe he's up for this one, too.

    "Who knows what could happen?" second baseman Aaron Hill said. "We have a great squad. Look what we did in the first month and a half."

    Look at what has happened since, as the Blue Jays have gone 26-43 over the past three months. Look at what the Blue Jays have, and compare it to what the Yankees have, and what the Red Sox have, and what the Rays have, and even what the Orioles will have.

    Right now, Toronto isn't even close. Next year, with or without Halladay, with or without Rios, they wouldn't be close.

    At some point, maybe they will be.

    But not in 2010.


    Basically, I agree with all of this. Hope the writer is correct about Riccardi's fate! :crossfingers:

  • #2
    What I would do if I were ownership:

    Call up Randy Ruiz (which they apparently just did after shipping Rios off) and platoon him at 1B with Overbay. If he proves he can hit between now & end-of-year, we could have a .270 / 20-25 HR/ 80+ RBI platoon next year. Not bad. If not, keep looking for that platoon option.

    Call up Snider in September and play him in RF. Get his experience and hopes he can fill in the Rios gap, which I thik he can.

    Fire J.P. Riccardi ASAP and try to replace him with a front office guy from a successful organization.

    New GM should trade Halladay in the offseason for some positional prospects. If not the offseason, the trade deadline if the Jays don't compete.

    Try and sign Chone Figgins (a guy who can get on base & is versatile) and resign Scutaro. The reason I prefer Figgins is that signing huge power guys take alot of $$$, and may eat up tons of payroll. Figgins may be more reasonably priced, plus he leads the AL in runs & gets on base at a .391 clip. Play Figgins at 3B. We shouldn't build the team around trying to outslug the Yankees or Red Sox because it wont happen. Hill, Ling & Snider provide some power already.

    Try and sign another mid-rotation pitcher and/or closer (perhaps we can try to convert McGowan to closer). With Rolen, Rios & potentially Halladay off the books, we should be in good shape to do that money wise.



    *If the team feels they won't win next year, or if they trade Halladay in the off season, then I can live with them saving some money for 2010 and not sign any or few free agents.

    Hopeful 2010 Batting Lineup

    Figgins 3B
    Scutaro SS
    Hill 2B
    Lind LF
    Overbay/Ruiz 1B
    Wells CF
    Snider RF
    Ruiz/Encarnacion/cost-effective signing (Russell Branyan??) DH
    Barajas C


    Let's just see who's out there for the picking after the season's over. The Canadian Dollar is almost at parity with the USD, and many expect the USD to tank over the next couple years, so the Jays are in good shape in being able to spend.
    Last edited by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan; 08-11-2009, 11:33 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan View Post
      What I would do if I were ownership:

      Call up Randy Ruiz (which they apparently just did after shipping Rios off) and platoon him at 1B with Overbay. If he proves he can hit between now & end-of-year, we could have a .270 / 20-25 HR/ 80+ RBI platoon next year. Not bad. If not, keep looking for that platoon option.

      Call up Snider in September and play him in RF. Get his experience and hopes he can fill in the Rios gap, which I thik he can.

      Fire J.P. Riccardi ASAP and try to replace him with a front office guy from a successful organization.

      New GM should trade Halladay in the offseason for some positional prospects. If not the offseason, the trade deadline if the Jays don't compete.

      Try and sign Chone Figgins (a guy who can get on base & is versatile) and resign Scutaro. The reason I prefer Figgins is that signing huge power guys take alot of $$$, and may eat up tons of payroll. Figgins may be more reasonably priced, plus he leads the AL in runs & gets on base at a .391 clip. Play Figgins at 3B. We shouldn't build the team around trying to outslug the Yankees or Red Sox because it wont happen. Hill, Ling & Snider provide some power already.

      Try and sign another mid-rotation pitcher and/or closer (perhaps we can try to convert McGowan to closer). With Rolen, Rios & potentially Halladay off the books, we should be in good shape to do that money wise.



      *If the team feels they won't win next year, or if they trade Halladay in the off season, then I can live with them saving some money for 2010 and not sign any or few free agents.

      Hopeful 2010 Batting Lineup

      Figgins 3B
      Scutaro SS
      Hill 2B
      Lind LF
      Overbay/Ruiz 1B
      Wells CF
      Snider RF
      Ruiz/Encarnacion/cost-effective signing (Russell Branyan??) DH
      Barajas C


      Let's just see who's out there for the picking after the season's over. The Canadian Dollar is almost at parity with the USD, and many expect the USD to tank over the next couple years, so the Jays are in good shape in being able to spend.
      First of all, I wouldnt put much faith in Ruiz as he is a 31 year old career minor leaguer having a good season. Had he been a keeper, im sure he would of caught on with another team ages ago, he strikes out more then Wells swings at sliders out of the zone.

      While I do like Chone Figgens, I bet you he signs for 10+ million a season going forward. (and you can quote me on this).


      I think the most likely as well as smartest thing to do would be this.


      Let Scutaro go as he is a class A free agent who will get us 2 high draft picks.

      Trade Halladay for a package of prospects.

      Go with whatever is left over. Basically effectively scrapping the team and starting from scratch.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Woodman19 View Post
        First of all, I wouldnt put much faith in Ruiz as he is a 31 year old career minor leaguer having a good season. Had he been a keeper, im sure he would of caught on with another team ages ago, he strikes out more then Wells swings at sliders out of the zone.

        While I do like Chone Figgens, I bet you he signs for 10+ million a season going forward. (and you can quote me on this).


        I think the most likely as well as smartest thing to do would be this.


        Let Scutaro go as he is a class A free agent who will get us 2 high draft picks.

        Trade Halladay for a package of prospects.

        Go with whatever is left over. Basically effectively scrapping the team and starting from scratch.
        I wouldn't bank on Ruiz either, but it's worth throwing him out there while were out of contention and seeing whether him and Overbay can form a viable platoon at 1B. He's hit Triple AAA pitching well for like 6 straight years, and I heard he might be the PCL MVP this year. Perhaps he could be productive just hitting LHP?

        If we dedicate ourselves to rebuilding, then let Scutaro go. The lineup I was presenting assumed that we keep Halladay and try and make a run in 2010. But writing off the next 2 seasons by starting over is an option as well. The problem with that is, if you do that, then Hill and Lind are near ready for free agency, and then who replaces them?

        I agree that Figgins will fetch $10m/year. I think he can get 3 years/$30M this offseason. That might be worth signing only IF we seriously have a plan to compete. That may not be doable. But having Figgins and resigning Scutaro give you two high On base guys right at the top for Hill & Lind. I would prefer the Jays move Hill to the third spot, since he doesn't get on base well. He's better at driving runs in.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan View Post
          I wouldn't bank on Ruiz either, but it's worth throwing him out there while were out of contention and seeing whether him and Overbay can form a viable platoon at 1B. He's hit Triple AAA pitching well for like 6 straight years, and I heard he might be the PCL MVP this year. Perhaps he could be productive just hitting LHP?

          If we dedicate ourselves to rebuilding, then let Scutaro go. The lineup I was presenting assumed that we keep Halladay and try and make a run in 2010. But writing off the next 2 seasons by starting over is an option as well. The problem with that is, if you do that, then Hill and Lind are near ready for free agency, and then who replaces them?

          I agree that Figgins will fetch $10m/year. I think he can get 3 years/$30M this offseason. That might be worth signing only IF we seriously have a plan to compete. That may not be doable. But having Figgins and resigning Scutaro give you two high On base guys right at the top for Hill & Lind. I would prefer the Jays move Hill to the third spot, since he doesn't get on base well. He's better at driving runs in.
          I agree with Ruiz being at least given a shot, I just dont feel he should even be on the horizon of our plans, unless he does something crazy like hit 20 homers in the end of the season.

          Also agree with Scutaro, as a Type A free agent, we stand to possibly get a stud or two in the draft for him.

          About the Lind and Hill issue. Dealing Halladay for major league ready prospects gives us a boost to start showing results and give hope for the future. Hopefully getting players who will immediately contribute, it will help us form the core of a franchise moving forward rather then leaving Lind and Hill as aging players on a team standing still. Keeping Halladay will make us stand still and leave our franchise still short on positional prospects, but with enough pitching to keep us in the middle of the pack. The last thing we need is to hold onto a Free Agent that has said he plans to test free agency and will help us with mediocrity. We should simply take the hit, trade for prospects and be prepared for a bad season to help us get a stud piece of the future (like the Rays did)

          I think any free agents we sign have to be on 1 or 2 year deals and have warts all over them. We cant afford to go after "great" players, we need to search for bargains who we might be able to flip for prospects at a trade deadline, or take on kids who were considered "busts" and give them a 2nd chance (like Josh Hamilton)

          Getting a GM like Tony LaCava would go a long way as he already has great knowlege of our system and would know what the league has to offer with first hand experience. I do think though if we do purge the team of players and go young we will better position ourselves in the future. As the Wells deal would come off the books just when a bulk of the kids would be looking for new contracts. We could keep a core intact while keeping a controlled payroll.

          Comment


          • #6
            I almost feel that Aaron Hill is the only reason I don't want to blow up the team, and Lind plays into it a little bit too. If they're about to hit their prime, you don't want to waste those years in a blow-up rebuild mode. So that's why I think that 2010 should be the last chance, they need to make one more pass at it before they give up on this squad. So here's what we do.

            First of all, I don't think we can afford to sign anyone to more than a 3-year deal. Scutaro just had the year of his life and he's not going to take a one-year deal, he's going to want to cash in. We might have to overpay him, but maybe he would take shorter term if we offered $12 million over 2 years? Because otherwise I think he would look for something in the $15 million over 2 years range. So we sign Scutaro and Barajas with the money saved from Rios. Hopefully out of that money, we can also afford someone to platoon with Encarnacion at 3B. As much as I hope that his numbers from July onward indicate that he has found his stroke from last year, that's just too shaky for me to trust him as our everyday 3B. We have a lot of other stuff that needs to go 100% right, so I don't want to have the team's success also leaning on EE.

            So we have a SS, a catcher, someone to platoon with EE. Now we need Carlos Delgado. He's at the end of a 4 year/$52 million deal, getting paid $16 million this year. But I'm thinking he's taking a huuuuge paycut this year... If so, we get him as a DH/occasional 1B. So that's our infield. As for the OF, basically we're going on faith. We hope that Lind keeps progressing, that Snider is going to be as good as a lot of people say he will be and that Vernon keeps it above the Mendoza line at least. And just for the record, I've never really been one of the people who is super-optimistic about Snider. I've seen him play probably 10 times or so (3 times last September in the jays last series at Yankee Stadium... not to brag or anything haha.) and I just wasn't wowed. But most of you guys seem up on him, and you seem pretty intelligent so I'll trust you.

            Now what about pitching? I think we have so much pitching in our system, that we don't really need to do much with either the bullpen or the rotation. We can mix and match young arms and hopefully find enough to put together a bullpen; hope that we have guys who get hot, like Jesse Carlson did last year.

            Our rotation is hopefully looking like this:
            1. Halladay
            2. Romero
            3. Marcum
            4. McGowan
            5. Litsch/Cecil/Mills/Ray/Richmond/RZ/Tallet?/(young arm we haven't seen yet)
            Not a sure thing by any means, but it gives us a chance to compete at least. And then the rest of the guys hit the pen, along with Accardo, Frasor, Downs and whoever else manages to get it going out of ST in the spring. The one area left to address: maybe we see who we can get on the cheap as a possible closer? It depends on what the market is like this offseason i suppose. But from this list of 2010 FA's, it looks like the supply is high in the pitching dept. There are also a fair number of aging sluggers (Delgado-type players) that could be our DH.
            • Scutaro at $6 million/y for 2 years
            • Barajas at $3 million for 1 year
            • Delgado/Sheffield/Brian Giles/Griffey Jr./Mike Cameron for between $4 and $8 million (depending on what the budget looks like for next year) for one year
            • JJ Putz/Kevin Gregg/Jose Valverde/Fernando Rodney for no more than $5 million over 1 year.
            So that's a little more than $20 million committed for 2010, and only $6 million for '11 (also with the chance to trade some of these guys at the deadline it turns out we're not in it, and thus we're gonna fire JP and rebuild). Rios and Rolen were set to be paid $21.825 million next year, so we're getting these guys without upping the payroll! And we're not committinig to anything beyond 2011 (where our payroll commitments are only about $32 million and $38 million if we sign Scoot to $12 million/2 years.

            Go for it! At least to give us all something to be excited about, before Roy is traded and we go through the same thing we went through for 10 years starting in the mid-90's.
            Last edited by Richmond Hill Phoenix; 08-12-2009, 01:23 PM.
            WAMCO!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Richmond Hill Phoenix View Post
              I almost feel that Aaron Hill is the only reason I don't want to blow up the team, and Lind plays into it a little bit too. If they're about to hit their prime, you don't want to waste those years in a blow-up rebuild mode. So that's why I think that 2010 should be the last chance, they need to make one more pass at it before they give up on this squad. So here's what we do.

              First of all, I don't think we can afford to sign anyone to more than a 3-year deal. Scutaro just had the year of his life and he's not going to take a one-year deal, he's going to want to cash in. We might have to overpay him, but maybe he would take shorter term if we offered $12 million over 2 years? Because otherwise I think he would look for something in the $15 million over 2 years range. So we sign Scutaro and Barajas with the money saved from Rios. Hopefully out of that money, we can also afford someone to platoon with Encarnacion at 3B. As much as I hope that his numbers from July onward indicate that he has found his stroke from last year, that's just too shaky for me to trust him as our everyday 3B. We have a lot of other stuff that needs to go 100% right, so I don't want to have the team's success also leaning on EE.

              So we have a SS, a catcher, someone to platoon with EE. Now we need Carlos Delgado. He's at the end of a 4 year/$52 million deal, getting paid $16 million this year. But I'm thinking he's taking a huuuuge paycut this year... If so, we get him as a DH/occasional 1B. So that's our infield. As for the OF, basically we're going on faith. We hope that Lind keeps progressing, that Snider is going to be as good as a lot of people say he will be and that Vernon keeps it above the Mendoza line at least. And just for the record, I've never really been one of the people who is super-optimistic about Snider. I've seen him play probably 10 times or so (3 times last September in the jays last series at Yankee Stadium... not to brag or anything haha.) and I just wasn't wowed. But most of you guys seem up on him, and you seem pretty intelligent so I'll trust you.

              Now what about pitching? I think we have so much pitching in our system, that we don't really need to do much with either the bullpen or the rotation. We can mix and match young arms and hopefully find enough to put together a bullpen; hope that we have guys who get hot, like Jesse Carlson did last year.

              Our rotation is hopefully looking like this:
              1. Halladay
              2. Romero
              3. Marcum
              4. McGowan
              5. Litsch/Cecil/Mills/Ray/Richmond/RZ/Tallet?/(young arm we haven't seen yet)
              Not a sure thing by any means, but it gives us a chance to compete at least. And then the rest of the guys hit the pen, along with Accardo, Frasor, Downs and whoever else manages to get it going out of ST in the spring. The one area left to address: maybe we see who we can get on the cheap as a possible closer? It depends on what the market is like this offseason i suppose. But from this list of 2010 FA's, it looks like the supply is high in the pitching dept. There are also a fair number of aging sluggers (Delgado-type players) that could be our DH.
              • Scutaro at $6 million/y for 2 years
              • Barajas at $3 million for 1 year
              • Delgado/Sheffield/Brian Giles/Griffey Jr./Mike Cameron for between $4 and $8 million (depending on what the budget looks like for next year) for one year
              • JJ Putz/Kevin Gregg/Jose Valverde/Fernando Rodney for no more than $5 million over 1 year.
              So that's a little more than $20 million committed for 2010, and only $6 million for '11 (also with the chance to trade some of these guys at the deadline it turns out we're not in it, and thus we're gonna fire JP and rebuild). Rios and Rolen were set to be paid $21.825 million next year, so we're getting these guys without upping the payroll! And we're not committinig to anything beyond 2011 (where our payroll commitments are only about $32 million and $38 million if we sign Scoot to $12 million/2 years.

              Go for it! At least to give us all something to be excited about, before Roy is traded and we go through the same thing we went through for 10 years starting in the mid-90's.
              See, I think the exact opposite. I feel Aaron Hill and Adam Lind are perfectly situated to achor a rebuild. With Lind on the horizon and a system with riches in arms. We are in the perfect position to take a step back for a season or two and bring up yougn kids to fill key roles. Hill and Lind are both 27 and if we rebuilt aroudn them for 2 years they would still only be 29. By which time they would serve as the veteran stars in the same capacity Halladay has for the past few years.

              With Cecil, Romero, Rzepczynski, Stewart, Marcum, (McGowan?), Litsch, Purcey, Ray and Mills (probably more) I think we have more then enoguh arms that with a couple of seasons of experience could very well be a solid enough group to form the cadre of a successfull team.

              I just think holding onto Scutaro (costing us 2 high draft picks we would get as compensation) and not trading Halladay when he is at his highest value (and likely to leave next year) we could give ourselves a real jumpstart to the rebuild. Look at the kinds of packages out there for Halladay before the deadline... we could very well grab 2 or 3 good young position players that along with Snider, Hill and Lind would be able to lead a very formidable offense.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Richmond Hill Phoenix View Post
                I almost feel that Aaron Hill is the only reason I don't want to blow up the team, and Lind plays into it a little bit too. If they're about to hit their prime, you don't want to waste those years in a blow-up rebuild mode. So that's why I think that 2010 should be the last chance, they need to make one more pass at it before they give up on this squad. So here's what we do.

                First of all, I don't think we can afford to sign anyone to more than a 3-year deal. Scutaro just had the year of his life and he's not going to take a one-year deal, he's going to want to cash in. We might have to overpay him, but maybe he would take shorter term if we offered $12 million over 2 years? Because otherwise I think he would look for something in the $15 million over 2 years range. So we sign Scutaro and Barajas with the money saved from Rios. Hopefully out of that money, we can also afford someone to platoon with Encarnacion at 3B. As much as I hope that his numbers from July onward indicate that he has found his stroke from last year, that's just too shaky for me to trust him as our everyday 3B. We have a lot of other stuff that needs to go 100% right, so I don't want to have the team's success also leaning on EE.

                So we have a SS, a catcher, someone to platoon with EE. Now we need Carlos Delgado. He's at the end of a 4 year/$52 million deal, getting paid $16 million this year. But I'm thinking he's taking a huuuuge paycut this year... If so, we get him as a DH/occasional 1B. So that's our infield. As for the OF, basically we're going on faith. We hope that Lind keeps progressing, that Snider is going to be as good as a lot of people say he will be and that Vernon keeps it above the Mendoza line at least. And just for the record, I've never really been one of the people who is super-optimistic about Snider. I've seen him play probably 10 times or so (3 times last September in the jays last series at Yankee Stadium... not to brag or anything haha.) and I just wasn't wowed. But most of you guys seem up on him, and you seem pretty intelligent so I'll trust you.

                Now what about pitching? I think we have so much pitching in our system, that we don't really need to do much with either the bullpen or the rotation. We can mix and match young arms and hopefully find enough to put together a bullpen; hope that we have guys who get hot, like Jesse Carlson did last year.

                Our rotation is hopefully looking like this:
                1. Halladay
                2. Romero
                3. Marcum
                4. McGowan
                5. Litsch/Cecil/Mills/Ray/Richmond/RZ/Tallet?/(young arm we haven't seen yet)
                Not a sure thing by any means, but it gives us a chance to compete at least. And then the rest of the guys hit the pen, along with Accardo, Frasor, Downs and whoever else manages to get it going out of ST in the spring. The one area left to address: maybe we see who we can get on the cheap as a possible closer? It depends on what the market is like this offseason i suppose. But from this list of 2010 FA's, it looks like the supply is high in the pitching dept. There are also a fair number of aging sluggers (Delgado-type players) that could be our DH.
                • Scutaro at $6 million/y for 2 years
                • Barajas at $3 million for 1 year
                • Delgado/Sheffield/Brian Giles/Griffey Jr./Mike Cameron for between $4 and $8 million (depending on what the budget looks like for next year) for one year
                • JJ Putz/Kevin Gregg/Jose Valverde/Fernando Rodney for no more than $5 million over 1 year.
                So that's a little more than $20 million committed for 2010, and only $6 million for '11 (also with the chance to trade some of these guys at the deadline it turns out we're not in it, and thus we're gonna fire JP and rebuild). Rios and Rolen were set to be paid $21.825 million next year, so we're getting these guys without upping the payroll! And we're not committinig to anything beyond 2011 (where our payroll commitments are only about $32 million and $38 million if we sign Scoot to $12 million/2 years.

                Go for it! At least to give us all something to be excited about, before Roy is traded and we go through the same thing we went through for 10 years starting in the mid-90's.
                First of all, i believe it very unlikely Delgado would come back as a platoon money for a huge paycut. He'd probably retire. The FA market should be depressed this winter however, so perhaps we can grab a quality DH bat for $5M per. Russell Branyan comes to mind, but im sure others will be out there.

                Second of all, although we have LOTS of young pitching, I don't necessarily consider it quality young pitching personally. A few other organizations have better young pitching IMO. Out of the litany of pitchers mentioned above, I don't see any horses outside Halladay, and perhaps 2, maybe 3 mid rotation guys. Rzepchynski & Mills are Triple AAA pitchers. Not sold on Marcum or McGowan yet. But all this remains to be seen. I don't expect many (sub 4 ERA over 200 IP; 15 win type) pitchers from this group. That said, I wouldn't be totally surprised to see 2-3 emerge from the fray.

                The best thing maybe to do a mini-rebuild by trading Halladay and contuing to develop the young pitchers & see who shakes out. Hopefully the 1-2 position players we get back from Halladay emerge as studs to further enforce an average offense. But if the Blue Jays want to go for it in 2010, they need to get a good DH, third baseman and resign Scutaro + add a closer at a minimum. And hope the young pitching emerges.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Woodman19 View Post
                  See, I think the exact opposite. I feel Aaron Hill and Adam Lind are perfectly situated to achor a rebuild. With Lind on the horizon and a system with riches in arms. We are in the perfect position to take a step back for a season or two and bring up yougn kids to fill key roles. Hill and Lind are both 27 and if we rebuilt aroudn them for 2 years they would still only be 29. By which time they would serve as the veteran stars in the same capacity Halladay has for the past few years.

                  With Cecil, Romero, Rzepczynski, Stewart, Marcum, (McGowan?), Litsch, Purcey, Ray and Mills (probably more) I think we have more then enoguh arms that with a couple of seasons of experience could very well be a solid enough group to form the cadre of a successfull team.

                  I just think holding onto Scutaro (costing us 2 high draft picks we would get as compensation) and not trading Halladay when he is at his highest value (and likely to leave next year) we could give ourselves a real jumpstart to the rebuild. Look at the kinds of packages out there for Halladay before the deadline... we could very well grab 2 or 3 good young position players that along with Snider, Hill and Lind would be able to lead a very formidable offense.
                  Woodman, that makes sense. I didn't realize that we control Aaron Hill through 2014, and that Lind will be in arbitration for the next 3-4 years, that is if we don't lock him in long term. So that makes more sense to me now that I realize that.

                  The only problem I have, is that from the proposed offers for Halladay, I don't recall hearing about getting a real impact position player in return. I heard about Happ and Billingsley, but we have enough pitching already. And if not we can get some in FA. But I want a solid solid solid infield prospect for Halladay. 3B SS or 1B. But if we can get that then i'm all for it.
                  Originally posted by Greg Maddux's Biggest Fan View Post
                  First of all, i believe it very unlikely Delgado would come back as a platoon money for a huge paycut. He'd probably retire. The FA market should be depressed this winter however, so perhaps we can grab a quality DH bat for $5M per. Russell Branyan comes to mind, but im sure others will be out there.

                  Second of all, although we have LOTS of young pitching, I don't necessarily consider it quality young pitching personally. A few other organizations have better young pitching IMO. Out of the litany of pitchers mentioned above, I don't see any horses outside Halladay, and perhaps 2, maybe 3 mid rotation guys. Rzepchynski & Mills are Triple AAA pitchers. Not sold on Marcum or McGowan yet. But all this remains to be seen. I don't expect many (sub 4 ERA over 200 IP; 15 win type) pitchers from this group. That said, I wouldn't be totally surprised to see 2-3 emerge from the fray.

                  The best thing maybe to do a mini-rebuild by trading Halladay and contuing to develop the young pitchers & see who shakes out. Hopefully the 1-2 position players we get back from Halladay emerge as studs to further enforce an average offense. But if the Blue Jays want to go for it in 2010, they need to get a good DH, third baseman and resign Scutaro + add a closer at a minimum. And hope the young pitching emerges.
                  It doesn't have to be Delgado, it was just an idea. I would certainly get out to a couple games just to see him back in a Jays uni. I think a lot of other people would too. But regardless, we just need a Delgado-type player to DH and play first occasionally. Whether we get it in FA, or we trade Halladay for a hard slugging prospect, i don't really care. I would rather they try to go for it this year, since it would sure as hell be more exciting than the alternative. But more than anything I want a direction for this team, so that they're not as frustrating to watch anymore.
                  Last edited by Richmond Hill Phoenix; 08-12-2009, 11:45 PM.
                  WAMCO!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Richmond Hill Phoenix View Post
                    Woodman, that makes sense. I didn't realize that we control Aaron Hill through 2014, and that Lind will be in arbitration for the next 3-4 years, that is if we don't lock him in long term. So that makes more sense to me now that I realize that.

                    .It doesn't have to be Delgado, it was just an idea. I would certainly get out to a couple games just to see him back in a Jays uni. I think a lot of other people would too. But regardless, we just need a Delgado-type player to DH and play first occasionally. Whether we get it in FA, or we trade Halladay for a hard slugging prospect, i don't really care. I would rather they try to go for it this year, since it would sure as hell be more exciting than the alternative. But more than anything I want a direction for this team, so that they're not as frustrating to watch anymore.
                    - I didn't realize we controlled Hill until 2014 either. With Lind still 3 years away from arbitration, maybe a mini-rebild can happen.

                    - I think finding a good DH will be the least of our concerns, providing were willing to spend $5M. The FA is expected to be depressed this year, and MLB is doing all they can to try and hold salaries down. Besides, salaries are generally tied to revenues, and attendance in MLB is down 4% this year due to the rough economy. I think the economy is in for a lot worse, but thats another topic.

                    - Yes, lets get that new direction ASAP. the Riccardi ship HAS SAILED. Hopefully with Beeston stepping down at EOY, the time is ripe for chance

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Richmond Hill Phoenix View Post
                      Woodman, that makes sense. I didn't realize that we control Aaron Hill through 2014, and that Lind will be in arbitration for the next 3-4 years, that is if we don't lock him in long term. So that makes more sense to me now that I realize that.

                      The only problem I have, is that from the proposed offers for Halladay, I don't recall hearing about getting a real impact position player in return. I heard about Happ and Billingsley, but we have enough pitching already. And if not we can get some in FA. But I want a solid solid solid infield prospect for Halladay. 3B SS or 1B. But if we can get that then i'm all for it.It doesn't have to be Delgado, it was just an idea. I would certainly get out to a couple games just to see him back in a Jays uni. I think a lot of other people would too. But regardless, we just need a Delgado-type player to DH and play first occasionally. Whether we get it in FA, or we trade Halladay for a hard slugging prospect, i don't really care. I would rather they try to go for it this year, since it would sure as hell be more exciting than the alternative. But more than anything I want a direction for this team, so that they're not as frustrating to watch anymore.
                      Heh, I figured you guys knew about controlling Hill and Lind for the amount of time that we can due to the fact they were not rushed up to the big leagues until fully ready. They would be critical to be the cornerstones of a mini rebuild. It is also convinient that Wells comes off the books after 2014. Which would free up considerable space to resign both Lind and Hill as well as other players we develop in that timespan.

                      Also, for the Rumoured Halladay deals, there was one of the Texas Rangers offering up 1B/Justin Smoak and LHP/Derek Holland (along with other lesser players) I think a deal involving either one of those (I prefere Smoak) would go a long way to help us contend in the near future as they are both considered possible future Franchise players. Justin Smoak is projected to be a solid power hitting first baseman who hits for average and is also a switch hitter. Comparible to Mark Teixeria. If they put him on the table before, I see no reason why we could not fetch him once more. Maybe if we are willing to pay $5.75 million on Halladay's last year of the contract making him a very affordable $10 Million for the Rangers they would offer up both.

                      I really wish I could somehow get into the front office, I would love to be in the situation the Jay's are with the unique opportunities that we will be able to put ourselves in if we do the right moves.
                      Last edited by Woodman19; 08-13-2009, 09:29 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Whoever suggested that we sign Delgado should be shot lol. I can't see the Jays spending a lot of money on a new DH for next year. We could possibly have an OF that has Wells, Snider and Lind, with Overbay at 1B. Who knows what Ruiz can do, but I'm assuming if he wasn't making an impact in the majors earlier, he isn't a keeper. Possibly a late bloomer ? I don't think so at the age of 30 or 31... but if he can keep hitting HRs, he could be a very cheap DH for us or use him in a platoon with Overbay. The big failure this season has been our hitting and our bullpen. Overbay has looked good lately and I think all the guy needs is Cito to show him some confidence, which he finally is doing, since hes hitting cleanup. If he can actually give us 20 HRs 80+ RBI, Scutaro (if we resign him) Hill and Lind hit next year like they did this year, Snider plays as good as we all think he can and Wells has a bounce back year hopefully, it isn't a bad offense, but there are too many IFs in there. I still would like us to add another good hitter possibly, but I doubt that will happen if we're trying to shed salary.

                        I think Cito is a great manager, but I wonder what the heck he is thinking sometimes. League and Carlson has been terrible all god damn year and yet Accardo keeps being sent down to AAA, despite the fact he has the second best ERA from the relievers. I know he hasn't pitched as many innings and hasn't been great at times, but he better than Carlson and League. I would use some of these surplus starting pitchers and throw them into the pen and hopefully sign a closer at a discount, like possibly JJ Putz, since hes had arm trouble the last few years. If we could sign him for something under $5 million, I think its worth a shot. If he ends up being good, we can always trade him and get something for him...
                        http://www.blackbetsy.com/movies/joeatbat.mpg

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by History Of Baseball Fan View Post
                          Whoever suggested that we sign Delgado should be shot lol. I can't see the Jays spending a lot of money on a new DH for next year. We could possibly have an OF that has Wells, Snider and Lind, with Overbay at 1B. Who knows what Ruiz can do, but I'm assuming if he wasn't making an impact in the majors earlier, he isn't a keeper. Possibly a late bloomer ? I don't think so at the age of 30 or 31... but if he can keep hitting HRs, he could be a very cheap DH for us or use him in a platoon with Overbay. The big failure this season has been our hitting and our bullpen. Overbay has looked good lately and I think all the guy needs is Cito to show him some confidence, which he finally is doing, since hes hitting cleanup. If he can actually give us 20 HRs 80+ RBI, Scutaro (if we resign him) Hill and Lind hit next year like they did this year, Snider plays as good as we all think he can and Wells has a bounce back year hopefully, it isn't a bad offense, but there are too many IFs in there. I still would like us to add another good hitter possibly, but I doubt that will happen if we're trying to shed salary.

                          I think Cito is a great manager, but I wonder what the heck he is thinking sometimes. League and Carlson has been terrible all god damn year and yet Accardo keeps being sent down to AAA, despite the fact he has the second best ERA from the relievers. I know he hasn't pitched as many innings and hasn't been great at times, but he better than Carlson and League. I would use some of these surplus starting pitchers and throw them into the pen and hopefully sign a closer at a discount, like possibly JJ Putz, since hes had arm trouble the last few years. If we could sign him for something under $5 million, I think its worth a shot. If he ends up being good, we can always trade him and get something for him...
                          Some people cant let go of the past.

                          Thats why Cito is here, The last possible face from the glory days we could bring back was him and not surprisingly, even a coach cant bring fans to the stands, only winning can. Thats why I think they should stop the BS and do things right, not he maple leafs way! (getting a couple faces here)

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                          • #14
                            Yeah, maybe I do deserve a few rounds in the gut for suggesting Delgado. But if we can get him for the same price as we would get a Russel Branyan for, then I would at least think about it. It's tough to tell how much his injury this season will cut the demand for him, and of course it also depends on the market in the offseason. Delgado at DH could still be a force I think, and there's something in me that thinks that if Delgado protects Wells like he did in '03 that Wells could regain form. But it's probably the Blue and White propaganda coming out of the hockey team down the street that's making me think that bringing back old tired faces is a good idea... who knows haha.

                            The one thing we can all agree on (and since it is the Jays forum, yes we DO all have to agree at least on something haha) is that we just want a direction from this team. Either let us know that 2010 is JP's last chance, or let us know that there's a new guy coming in and he has $40 million to spend to make us a winner, or let us know that the new guy is blowing it up. I truly don't care which they choose, because all of those options are better than the wishy washy situation we're in now.
                            WAMCO!

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                            • #15
                              Delgado would be Frank Thomas 2.0

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