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  • #31
    Originally posted by Imapotato View Post
    I'd have to disagree...wins are a meaningless stat nowadays but back then it was the stat of competiveness...
    Why must one have polarized oppisites?

    <and Cy is the all time great on win% as part of his teams win/loss record. He won games on teams that would have lost those games with 98% of the pitchers in the league.>

    Where are we getting this stat from?

    <Also, the story of his perfect game against Rube Waddell and the A's shows his career in one game.>

    Yeah, perfect games are pretty much a career norm
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
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    • #32
      Young credits John Clarkson with making him a better pitcher.

      According to Young’s biographer Reed Browning, “Clarkson showed Young how to improve his curve ball, advised him on ways to sharpen control, and prodded him to think about pitching strategy.”
      John Clarkson was mentored partly by Tommy Bond.

      Starting in 1880, John played amateur ball for the Beacons of Boston for a little over two years. He also played for the Hyde Park club at times. Clarkson was one of the Beacons’ star hitters and eventually developed into the club’s leading pitcher. The team played all comers, including major-league clubs, and Clarkson soon gained a reputation as one of the area’s leading hurlers. During his Beacon days he received some pitching tips from Boston Red Stockings pitcher Tommy Bond.
      Last edited by bluesky5; 04-16-2013, 06:52 PM.
      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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      • #33
        1863-67: Candy Cummings invents the curveball.

        1875: Candy Cummings plays for the Hartford Dark Blues with Tommy Bond.
        SABR article: Hartford club divided the pitching load between Cummings and 19-year-old Tommy Bond, who played right field for the first eight weeks of the campaign while learning the curveball from Cummings. Bond mastered the pitch by mid-season...

        1880: Tommy Bond mentors John Clarkson.
        SABR article: During his Beacon days he received some pitching tips from Boston Red Stockings pitcher Tommy Bond...

        1882-93: John Clarkson plays with Cy Young and gives him pointers on the curveball.
        SABR article: Cy Young, who wasn’t a part of the Brotherhood struggle, later acknowledged Clarkson’s help in refining his game. According to Young’s biographer Reed Browning, “Clarkson showed Young how to improve his curve ball, advised him on ways to sharpen control, and prodded him to think about pitching strategy.”

        There is no explicit evidence that Bond taught Clarkson the curveball in 1880. It isn't a stretch to think that he did, though.

        From old master to young [no pun intended] apprentice. Straight from the inventor of the breaking ball to the man whom the award for the best yearly pitcher is named for.
        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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        • #34
          Young had a strange delivery. He started almost looking towards shortstop then whirled around for the pitch. Of his breaking balls he had one with a particularly curious sweep, more lateral than most others. It wasn't quick or sharp enough to be slider, but definitely remained more on the same plane than a regular curve. This pitch was in all likelihood a slurve.
          "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
            Young had a strange delivery. He started almost looking towards shortstop then whirled around for the pitch. Of his breaking balls he had one with a particularly curious sweep, more lateral than most others. It wasn't quick or sharp enough to be slider, but definitely remained more on the same plane than a regular curve. This pitch was in all likelihood a slurve.
            Makes me wonder what Clarkson showed him. And what Clarkson was showed by Bond, by Cummings. What the original "curve" looked like.

            Cummings got the idea throwing sea [clam?] shells. Which would move more laterally, I'm pretty sure.
            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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            • #36


              AWESOME!!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
                Young had a strange delivery. He started almost looking towards shortstop then whirled around for the pitch. Of his breaking balls he had one with a particularly curious sweep, more lateral than most others. It wasn't quick or sharp enough to be slider, but definitely remained more on the same plane than a regular curve. This pitch was in all likelihood a slurve.
                In that fabulous video, Browning talks about the pitches Young (had to develop) in the 1890's. A hard curve, palm ball (changeup), and in the early 1900's, he threw a spitball (rarely). He had cultivated FIVE pitches by the end of his career.

                Ty Cobb said Cy Young was one of the hardest pitchers to run on. Although he had a bizarro/unwieldy windup early in his career (Dontrelle Willis comes to mind)......he changed things drastically by the 1900's. By the end of his career, Christy Mathewson said his windup & form was the model for all Major League pitchers.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
                  In that fabulous video, Browning talks about the pitches Young (had to develop) in the 1890's. A hard curve, palm ball (changeup), and in the early 1900's, he threw a spitball (rarely). He had cultivated FIVE pitches by the end of his career.

                  Ty Cobb said Cy Young was one of the hardest pitchers to run on. Although he had a bizarro/unwieldy windup early in his career (Dontrelle Willis comes to mind)......he changed things drastically by the 1900's. By the end of his career, Christy Mathewson said his windup & form was the model for all Major League pitchers.

                  I'd pay a lot of money to see the differences in his Young's delivery from his early years to his later ones. Most people would use a time machine for moments of grandeur. In all honestly, I would use it to collect info on baseball players

                  Despite Young's whizzing fastball, for which he was bestowed his nickname, it does not seem to come up very often. Some of this I attribute to Amos Rusie and his prevalence in the discussion of high heat. Then came Walter Johnson, who really set the standard to judge a pitcher's velocity. The quotes are there, including one Honus Wagner saying Young threw faster than Johnson, but Young is not as noted for the fastball as was possible. Instead, he perfectly blended his tools to reach athletic heights no one will ever approach again.
                  "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

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                  • #39
                    Jouett Meekin was considered one of the fastest pitchers of the 1890's. It's really difficult to find information on him though. David Nemec is working on his bio for SABR I see.
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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