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  • #16
    Caruthers is arguably better than Bunning, Eckersley, Ruffing ,Bender, Wynn . . .
    . . . but then he's also arguably not as good as McCormick, Mullane, DLeonard, Griffith, Pierce, Bridges, Trout, McGinnity . . .
    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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    • #17
      Man, why's McGinnity on that list? He's IN the hall. Thing is, once again you undervalue Bob's worth as an everyday player. Billy Pierce never ever served his team like Parisian Bob. There has never been a pitcher so effective at the plate on his off days (you can argue Foutz, but his arm went so quick). Bobby and Tippy were THE big guys of the AA. Not Pete Browning (who does deserve the hall like I deserve to breathe sometimes). It's the Hall of Fame- not Hall of guys who are good and good looking, but don't lead the league in anything ever except pitching with both hands (that's a Mullane reference for the pedestrians).

      Caruthers and O'Neill were genuine stars- superheroes of the day and they deserve some damn recognition. We're not talking Frank Tanana and Al Oliver here.

      Bob was the real thing.
      "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Buzzaldrin
        Man, why's McGinnity on that list? He's IN the hall.
        My bad, but I think you get my point

        <Thing is, once again you undervalue Bob's worth as an everyday player. Billy Pierce never ever served his team like Parisian Bob. There has never been a pitcher so effective at the plate on his off days (you can argue Foutz, but his arm went so quick). Bobby and Tippy were THE big guys of the AA. Not Pete Browning (who does deserve the hall like I deserve to breathe sometimes). It's the Hall of Fame- not Hall of guys who are good and good looking, but don't lead the league in anything ever except pitching with both hands (that's a Mullane reference for the pedestrians).

        Caruthers and O'Neill were genuine stars- superheroes of the day and they deserve some damn recognition. We're not talking Frank Tanana and Al Oliver here.

        Bob was the real thing.>

        He was a great-hitting pitcher, but he did have a short career. Couldn't even be eligible for the Hall were it not for 51 late AB.
        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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        • #19
          But you all have to see

          In the 19th century baseball was alot different, winning 40 games was like winning 20 now. He had 5 good years that got him over 200 wins and did nothing besides that. Yes he was a good hitter but that not enough to get him in the HOF. Maybe he dose maybe he dosen't but it shouldnt be HE NEEDS TO BE IN THE HOF.

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          • #20
            well, he had over 200 wins and under 100 losses- that oughta get ANYBODY in the hall, whenever he played ball.

            I agree with you to a point regarding the status of 40 wins. Since you started a large percentage of the team's games until 1893, if you were any good and played on a decent team, it wouldn't really knock anyone's socks off if you managed 40 at some point. However- think of the toll on the arm- Hecker, Ward, Kilroy, King and co. just lost it after often only two or three good years.

            However, From when the mound was moved back in 1893 until the foul rules became modern (1901 NL, 1903 AL), only Rusie, Frank Killen, and Cy Young won 35+ in a season. After the foul changes, it was once again possible to win 40 (or within a few) until the live ball took off. You know what I think the smartest thing Young and Nichols ever did was? Whether intentionally or not- never starting over 50 games in a seaon (Nichols did once, but that was before 1893) once the plate was moved back.

            I will toss Tony Mullane a bone here, though. There's no question that, if he had been allowed to play in 1885, he would now be in the hall of fame, since he would undoubtedly won at least 25 or 30 games, pushing him well over 300. And furthermore, if he hadn't missed parts of other seasons because of contract disputes (the reason he missed 1884), he could have won a further 30 or so without stretching the imagination, and possibly retired second in wins only to Galvin.
            "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

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            • #21
              It is interesting (at least to me) that Bob Lemon and Bob Caruthers have virtually identical IP's and RSAA's.
              Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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              • #22
                Originally posted by KCGHOST
                It is interesting (at least to me) that Bob Lemon and Bob Caruthers have virtually identical IP's and RSAA's.
                I have no idea what RSAAs are, but I have Caruthers as arguably better than Bunning, Gomez, Welch, Hoyt, BWalters, Lemon, Bender, Wynn, Chesbro, Pennock, Grimes, Marquard, Hunter and Haines.
                Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                  I have no idea what RSAAs are, but I have Caruthers as arguably better than Bunning, Gomez, Welch, Hoyt, BWalters, Lemon, Bender, Wynn, Chesbro, Pennock, Grimes, Marquard, Hunter and Haines.

                  I would agree... I don't think most of those deserve to be in the Hall...
                  "There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.
                  ~~Al Gallagher


                  God Bless America!

                  Click here to see my baseball tribute site!

                  Click here to see the best pitcher NOT in the HOF!

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                  • #24
                    I'd be careful about Grimes, Lemon, and Wynn- what they did in their eras was truly remarkable- I mean, how many guys had five 20 game seasons in the 20s? Or seven in nine years in the fifties? Or won 300 games in the 40's and (mostly) 50's (well...Spahn...). Those guys deserved their accolades.
                    "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                      I have no idea what RSAAs are, but I have Caruthers as arguably better than Bunning, Gomez, Welch, Hoyt, BWalters, Lemon, Bender, Wynn, Chesbro, Pennock, Grimes, Marquard, Hunter and Haines.
                      RSAA's are Runs Saved Against Average, a powerful Lee Sinins' stat.

                      Walters is not an HoFer so he is not too germane to the argument for or against Caruthers.

                      I agree that he was better than most of those guys, except Lemon and Gomez. Lemon and Caruthers are a push and Gomez was probably better.

                      Using win/loss records to justify a pitchers ranking vis a vis each other has been pretty much discredited.
                      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Buzzaldrin
                        I'd be careful about Grimes, Lemon, and Wynn- what they did in their eras was truly remarkable- I mean, how many guys had five 20 game seasons in the 20s? Or seven in nine years in the fifties? Or won 300 games in the 40's and (mostly) 50's (well...Spahn...). Those guys deserved their accolades.
                        Wynn's ERA+ is a whopping 106, wins are a team function
                        Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                        Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          300 of them are not.

                          Not in the 40s and 50s, that's for sure.
                          "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

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                          • #28
                            I believe today is his and Dahlen's birthday

                            Happy Birthday to two forgotten greats.
                            THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                            In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                              Wynn's ERA+ is a whopping 106, wins are a team function
                              His ERA+ is a whopping 106 because in 9 of his 23 years, his ERA+ was under 100, including 1948 when it was a whopping 74! When he won 20 games his ERA+ ranged from 115-154.

                              Early Wynn is the new rollercoaster thrill ride at Cedar point.

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